Jason Moskal, SVP of Marketing at Randstad on the importance of diversity of thought and experience in marketing

YouShouldTalkTo - Jason Moskal

[00:00:00] Daniel Weiner: Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to Podcast. I am Daniel Wiener, your host, uh, as well as your sponsor. For the time being, you should talk to pairs, brands, and marketers for free, with vetted agencies and or freelancers for marketing and techniques, because finding great agencies is a pain in the ass.

[00:00:18] Today I'm super excited to be joined by my new friend Jason Moscal, who is SVP of Marketing at Randstad. Did I pronounce that right, Jason?

[00:00:26] Jason Moskal: That is correct.

[00:00:27] Daniel Weiner: I got that right. Thank you so much for joining today. Uh, we will dive right in. What

[00:00:34] unpopular or, uh, spicy take or a marketing hill you are willing to die on?

[00:00:39] Let's kick off there.

[00:00:41] Jason Moskal: Yeah, so I think, um, I think there's two ways I think about this. I think the thing that's spicy is marketing is changing so much that a lot of brands and a lot of companies have it wrong. 'cause I think they've really lost touch with how much consumer sentiment in the marketplace is changing. And how quickly it's changing.

[00:00:58] Um, and so I think it's important that as marketing leaders think about how they go to market with things. The other part of that spiciness is the fact that you've gotta make sure that you're listening to the customer. You've gotta make sure you're thinking about your brand and how your brand really speaks to specifically what that customer needs uniquely.

[00:01:19] Um, and there's so many brands and so many marketers right now that are kind of doing a me too thing because they're trying to win share that way. Versus really trying to understand the consumer sentiment and how it's changing and staying on top of that and staying plugged into that. So I think it really, um, a lot of brands have lost touch with, uh, the pulse of, of the, the market and, and their, their target audiences.

[00:01:40] With so much change that has happened over the last three years with the pandemic that it really is, how do we get back to making sure we're not only listening. Understanding what their pain points and their needs are and making sure you come to the table with your perspective that's unique from your competitors' perspectives.

[00:01:57] Daniel Weiner: And I think we talked about it a little bit in person when we met the other day, um, about how marketers often overcomplicate as well. When, to your point, at the end of the day, it's like, go talk talk to your customers. Uh, you'll, you'll find out significantly more than a lot of the, uh, and you'll probably learn faster if you just talk to your customers versus some of the, uh, getting obsessed with attribution and a million other things that, uh, marketers tend to do.

[00:02:19] Jason Moskal: Yeah, absolutely. I think because so many, you know, the marketing function is very unique in that, and we all joke in marketing, everybody's a marketer, right? Everybody thinks they know the point of view, but they're normally putting their own lens on it as a consumer versus thinking about who is my brand or my organization's target audience, and how do they see something?

[00:02:38] So to your point, you've gotta make sure that you continually are listening. To them, not to the internal stakeholders. Internal stakeholders, obviously very important because you need them supporting whatever you do from a marketing strategy perspective and ultimately how you go to market. But at the end of the day, you've gotta make sure that you're speaking to the, the audience you want to attract, the audience you want to build equity with, because at the end of the day, that is who's important, more so than the internal stakeholders that may or may not fall within that.

[00:03:06] So listening to the customer, it begins and ends with the customer in terms of how you drive the business forward.

[00:03:11] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I like it. Uh, you're currently at Randstad. You've been at some pretty notable brands over the course of your career, across different verticals. I h g, Meineke, ally Bank, bank of America. Tell us a little bit about that and kind of what's the biggest change you've seen? You just mentioned, you know, consumer sentiment.

[00:03:28] What's the biggest change you've seen over the course of, I don't know, your entire career, I suppose? Um, You know, in terms of what does the consumer want, um, you know, in their especially in the last few years, I guess.

[00:03:41] Jason Moskal: Yeah, absolutely. I would say if I look at like the last 15, 20 years of my career, I've had the unique opportunity to be in industries when they were at the cusp of, and we were driving transformation. I. Driven and underpinned by technology. So whether it was financial institutions in the two thousands where it was the evolution of online banking to digital only banking, uh, and, um, automobiles and, and aftercare market.

[00:04:06] It was really the transformation of how do you go from that traditional brick and mortar to introducing technology to be a helper and enabler to make that easy. And then fast forward to today with staffing, we're in the midst of a digital transformation. I think all that's underpinned by how do you remove friction?

[00:04:22] From a customer's journey with you, and a lot of people, um, define innovation very differently. In my mind, innovation is not technology. It's how are you using technology to make that consumer opportunity easier, because they're gonna be more likely. To do business with you and more likely to grow the relationship with you when you remove that friction and use that technology as an underpinning way to do that.

[00:04:46] So right now, for instance, and with Randstad, we're looking at how do we develop a two-way end-to-end marketplace with talent and with clients to bring together what clients need in terms of great talent and when talents are looking for that opportunity. So it's very similar to if you think about what Uber did years ago, In terms of the transportation space, you look at what's happened in the dating app space as well with Bumble and Tinder.

[00:05:11] All of those really using technology as an easier way to connect, whether that be connecting with a car, connecting with a person. Now we're using it and how you connect clients and talent together in an effective way. So what I think has been interesting about all this is I've stayed in the services category.

[00:05:27] So even though those brands are very different, and you think about banking, And hospitality and automobiles and, and now staffing. At the end of the day, it's all really, the common thread is its services and it's how are you positioning a brand in a powerful and unique way using technology to help remove that friction that I was just talking about.

[00:05:49] And make it be a brand that a consumer or a business wants to do business with because you understand what their pain points are or what their needs are, and you're using technology and innovation in a way that really helps that and makes that quicker, makes that easier, makes that seamless for them.

[00:06:05] And I think a lot of companies and a lot of brands, the challenge and, and kind of the, uh, the oxymoron there is a lot of people think we've gotta do technology for technology's sake. Is that technology working to truly define an innovation that's helpful to your target audience. And if you do it, then at the end of the day, you're gonna grow.

[00:06:23] So there's a lot of similarities, even though there's a lot of differences in all those brands. A lot of similarities in terms of how I've had the unique opportunity to really use. Technology in a way that has driven digital transformation in those industries. So whether it's banking today, when you think about banking as an example in, in the two thousands, right?

[00:06:41] People always still went to brick and mortars. They went to ATMs, they cashed their paychecks. Now you can't even think about actually stepping foot in it unless you need a cashier's check or you have to talk about a small business loan. Everything is done. With the mobile device. And so when you think about just in that 12 or 15 years, how that business and industry has changed, being at the forefront of that is what's made kind of my career journey really exciting.

[00:07:04] But as we said earlier, it all begins and ends with the customer. What do they need and how do you make sure that transformation is not for transformation sake, but it's for the sake of what the customer needs and what makes their life easier.

[00:07:16] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I'm, I'm interested specific to staffing in a post covid world. Have you had to rethink or redefine, uh, what that looks like in the staffing world and how you're marketing and helping your customers and meeting them where they are since that's, Uh, no longer a very, uh, binary answer I guess.

[00:07:32] Jason Moskal: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting 'cause when we went through the pandemic, obviously the, the sky was falling right back in, in 2020, all the companies were pulling back. Um, you know, there was obviously a lot of layoffs. We had unemployment that went up, and then we saw this really weird paradigm shift right away, right?

[00:07:47] All of a sudden it dropped significantly. There was this thing called talent scarcity, right? You were looking for great talent and companies couldn't find great talent no matter what function you were in, what area of the business you were in. And so it became kind of feast or famine in terms of not only finding good people, but finding people, period.

[00:08:04] So that really was for us, a driver to say, what are new and different ways we can think about our staffing model? At Randstad, and that's why digital has really become a focus. It's not, again, for digital's sake, but it's how do we transform and make the B2B side of the equation helping clients find great talent much easier and faster and seamless.

[00:08:25] Meanwhile, there's other roles that maybe are a little more sophisticated or a little more experiential that you need a little bit more of that brick and mortar. Can I speak to somebody? Let's work through the process. So really it became a, instead of a one size fits all, How do you use different channels and shift from kind of a multi-channel approach to an omni-channel approach that depending on what type of staff or what type of individuals you're looking for to kind of fill out your organization.

[00:08:50] We now have different ways that we can work with clients and different ways. Talent can actually find jobs as well, because not everybody is a, you know, nine to five, 40 hour a week career person. So sometimes you really want the gig workers, you want the flexibility with some of the blue collar work as well.

[00:09:05] So there's different ways you've gotta go to market with that. And I would say that's probably the biggest, um, silver lining, if you will, that came out of the last three years is it really made us look at our business model differently, and then how we go to market and connect with different target audiences in a much more effective way.

[00:09:20] Daniel Weiner: No, that makes sense with the economy where it is and you know, I guess I would define it today as in flux, uh, discretionary spending, potentially low. What's your advice to other CMOs, VPs of marketing, marketing leaders in general about how to, I don't know, navigate through, uh, this period?

[00:09:38] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I think there's a, there's a couple things there, Dan. I think the first is, and it goes back to when we were talking earlier, That you've gotta make your brand differentiated, not for differentiation sake, but it's speaking to an opportunity or a pain point with that customer, whether it's B2B or B2C.

[00:09:52] Um, because then you become indispensable, right? You become a, as discretionary gets pulled back, or as businesses pull back, if you have taken a position with that customer, whether it is a consumer or a business, that you are kind of invaluable to them and their business or their life, then you have a unique spot.

[00:10:11] And the thing that I think all CMOs and all marketing leaders have to do is how do you prioritize? Because everybody wants to do everything, right? Everybody comes with annual planning and they says, here's our 42 priorities for the year. At the end of the day, there's no company. There's no team, there's no organization that can do 42 things well.

[00:10:30] So what are those three to five non-negotiable things that as you think about the role that you play in a business's or a consumer's life, What are the priorities that are gonna help deepen that relationship or deepen that opportunity? Because then as spending gets pulled back or investments get pulled back, from a a business perspective, you have a unique point of view where you are focusing on the few things that you know are gonna have the biggest impact.

[00:10:54] With those audiences and they're gonna ultimately tie back to, because it begins and ends with the customer, it ties back to your bottom line because you're doing the right things that, you know, even during kind of these tumultuous times where spending goes up and down sometimes on a weekly basis, um, you are doing the right things to kind of weather that storm and make sure you're positioning your brand or your offering or your product the right way.

[00:11:17] Um, that makes it something that. The consumer or the business doesn't wanna pull back on. Um, and then it's also just staying loyal to them as well, because at the end of the day, sometimes, as we've all seen and we've been through these cycles several times over the last several decades, um, you've gotta stay loyal to the customer.

[00:11:33] There are gonna be times when that business is gonna pull back or that consumer is, is gonna pull back with their discretionary spend. How are you staying loyal to them? So when they do rebound, they know that you were a brand or an organization or a company that stuck with them even though they weren't buying from you.

[00:11:48] Or they weren't engaging with you, you kept that relationship still going with them so that when it does rebound, they know you're a company or a business or a brand that they still wanna do business with. And I think sometimes when times are tough and headwinds are really strong in the market, I.

[00:12:03] Marketing leaders forget to do that, right? They think, if I can't get that sale today, if I can't, you know, get it in the week for the week or in the month or in the quarter, for the quarter, then is it really valuable to me? But they, at the end of the day, it really is about those long-term relationships.

[00:12:17] So you weather those ebbs and flows in the economy. And those customers, whether businesses or uh, consumers are really, really loyal to you.

[00:12:24] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think it's interesting you talked about prioritization. Uh, I talked to a lot of CMOs and it's usually kind of split in times like this. Where do you prioritize testing and like attribution? Are you willing to throw money at something unproven to test. It out potentially like a certain percentage of your spend, which I presume is smaller.

[00:12:43] Are you only looking for, you know, theoretically attributable, um, you know, marketing tactics? How do you think about trying new things when things aren't going gangbusters? Uh, and you know, how the, how that comes off to leadership potentially.

[00:12:56] Jason Moskal: Yeah, it's um, it's a great question, especially because when we talked about stakeholders earlier, You've gotta make sure you bring them along with you, right? Because especially in the testing environment, when you know that things may not go the way you want, or you're putting your toe in the water on something, you've gotta have their backing.

[00:13:12] Uh, I'm a big believer is you either win or you learn. Right? And if you're not continually setting up, That agenda, that way in marketing, then you're never gonna advance and you're gonna keep doing the same thing. So one of the things that we do, and I've done this all the way back from from my banking days, but in automotive, in hospitality, everything has to start with a learning agenda.

[00:13:32] And we've gotta be very clear, uh, if we've got a learning agenda and what are the three to five things that we prioritize as learnings. Sometimes that is tied to tried and true approaches or strategies that we're like, look, We're still gonna learn because we're moving the needle incrementally across certain channels and we're trying different things within, which is not as as risky.

[00:13:53] Right? Then there is the exponential risk, if you will, or the exponential growth opportunity, and that's where you've gotta be really smart about, Hey, you can't boil the ocean. You've gotta think about if this year we have a learning agenda, what are the two or three things we want to test that maybe we haven't done before?

[00:14:10] That we want to try out and see what is the right approach, how do we learn from it? So that way as we get those investments and we put more behind it, we're smarter about how we doing it. But it really does, again, start with that learning agenda and making sure that with your stakeholders, you're aligned to say, look, this is what we're gonna do with 80 or 90% of our marketing investment.

[00:14:31] We are gonna go after the tried and true things that we know work. To drive our business, and there are some incremental things we can do that we think can move the needle, but then here's that 10 or 15% within our budget that we're gonna be very smart and tied back to that learning agenda to say, here are the things we're gonna dabble with and we're gonna see if it works.

[00:14:49] The thing you don't want to do, and a lot of brands are doing this right now, I, I, I hate to bring up the word, I, I tease my kids all the time, but TikTok, right? Everybody sees every brand on TikTok

[00:14:58] Daniel Weiner: didn't know what, I didn't know what words you were gonna say when you said didn't wanna say I was like, what's he about to say's? Okay.

[00:15:03] Jason Moskal: What's the dirty word? But it's funny. It's funny because everybody's like, oh, I gotta have, we gotta have TikTok, right? It's like we, we've got LinkedIn, we, we've got Insta, we've got Facebook. Now we have to have TikTok. You gotta ask yourself, do you, are you a brand that TikTok makes sense? Don't just do it because everybody else is doing it.

[00:15:21] Do it because it ties back to your learning agenda and you think that there is potentially something you can kind of peel back and determine how it works with your overall kind of integrated marketing channels. If it doesn't work, that's okay too. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but that goes back to the stakeholders, right?

[00:15:38] Because I know all the marketers and all the marketing leaders have probably heard when they're walking down the hall, Hey, when Instagram first came out, where's our Insta channel? Where's our, you know, where's our Twitter handle? Where's all of this? And definitely those are tried and true today. But it's really about being smart about how you test those new things and you set the right investments to make sure you're learning.

[00:15:58] So you're not failing, but you're learning from it. To say, this does or doesn't make sense, but don't just jump on the bandwagon 'cause every other brand and every other company or consumer is jumping on it. Make sure that it makes sense for your overall marketing strategy, your overall integrated approach, and for your business as well.

[00:16:13] Daniel Weiner: I think it's part of, uh, I think the biggest problem I see across virtually every marketer I chat with, uh, it's not necessarily specific to TikTok, but they've been told, and it's, I agree with it, like the biggest, um, issue or think. Thing that they're trying to figure out is how do we create content at scale, uh, regardless of where they are.

[00:16:32] Like you just constantly, every day, theoretically, need to be creating and providing value and adding something to your, you know, customers to the world, to the market in general. And it is such a daunting task to create, especially when you get into like a big. Or bigger, which is relative consumer facing brand because it is so competitive and there are so many options and we are inundated 24 hours a day with advertisements and influencers and all that sort of stuff.

[00:16:58] How do you stay hyper relevant? So I, I feel for the plight of the marketer trying to figure that out. Do you have any thoughts on just how do you look at content at scale?

[00:17:08] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I think there's a couple things. Um, you know, and I'll look at what we, what I used to do at IHG with Hotel Indigo. It was interesting because, you know, we didn't have the big marketing dollars. Um, it was a boutique brand. We were like a growing little engine that could, if you will. So we said, how can we be smart?

[00:17:24] We really use social platforms and content as our approach. But it was interesting 'cause a lot of people said, okay, how are you putting your brand, you know, in the forefront of the consumer's mind? And the reality is, is that wasn't the right approach. Our strategy was what are the things that are on the, the guests that we want in this hotel?

[00:17:41] What are the items that are on their minds? And it was things like music, it was art, it was food, it was culture, it was neighborhood. And so we very much looked at that and said, there's such a rich opportunity in all those different areas. How do we cultivate our own content? We know is top of mind with the type of boutique stayer that we wanted, and we naturally and organically insert Hotel Indigo in the right places.

[00:18:07] So we would basically comb through every place where we were putting a new hotel. We'd look at those neighborhoods and we would say, what makes that unique from a music or an arts or a food scene? Um, are there unique things that we could be tapping into and then position our brand as a catalyst. To bringing that information through content.

[00:18:26] So it was interesting. We actually found when we started to roll this approach out, We would put content out there for people, and I'll just pick on, on Nashville, Tennessee, when people were going to Nashville when, uh, hot chicken was, was big and, um, coffee houses before they are what they were today. We took a look at that and actually Nashville Printers Row is known for a lot of their unique kind of bespoke coffee houses.

[00:18:49] Obviously they have a huge music scene. They, but they also have a big underground music scene as well. Big art scene as well. We actually tapped into that. And we developed a content hub for each one of our hotels in Nashville. For instance, we generated content around hot chicken, coffee and some of the local artists because there was so much ground there for us to cover.

[00:19:09] And then we organically kind of in, in infiltrated the Hotel Indigo name. So all of a sudden we positioned ourselves as, oh wow, I've never heard of them. Let me find out more. So it was almost an organic journey, if you will. For them, searching content, something that was important to them, and then organically and naturally coming across our hotel brands.

[00:19:28] So when they were planning a trip to figure out where am I going to eat? Where am I gonna go see music? Where do I get my coffee? All of a sudden the place you wanna stay is organically being woven into all that content. The thing I think, and the advice I'd give marketers is don't force content. Don't force something that you want to say.

[00:19:46] The moral of the story there is put out content that's gonna be very important and very relevant. To the person you're trying to reach. Because if you do that in a natural way and then naturally infuse your brand into that, all of a sudden you in a very powerful way, earn a spot in that consumer or that business's mind versus trying to push your own agenda and saying, we want to talk about this.

[00:20:09] We want to be a thought leader. That's another phrase that's used way too much. We wanna be a thought leader in this space, right? At the end of the day, if you put out the content, Your target is interested in learning more about, and then you all of a sudden are positioning your brand as you're the catalyst to delivering that type of content.

[00:20:26] One, it's, there's so much content you can put around those different areas that isn't about you, it's about what they wanna know, and then you can naturally put your brand against it that I've actually seen work really well. So you can start to generate content at scale and it becomes a very powerful way to bring them in.

[00:20:42] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think, uh, a lot of people misunderstood, in my opinion when, uh, I don't know who originally said it years ago, like every brand needs to be a media company, which I agree to a certain degree, but that doesn't mean that you have to be, uh, like an actual media company is like, You producing content every 12 seconds, like, I think it missed the mark.

[00:21:02] Uh, it's a good sentiment, but, uh, I think it makes people think like, oh my God, I, I mean, I feel it too. I've posted every day on LinkedIn for three years roughly, the few days where I don't, I feel myself that morning being like, oh my God, I didn't post. And then I'm like, what am I doing? I don't have to do that today.

[00:21:17] Like the, the world doesn't end, it goes on. And I think brands think the opposite. Like if they're, to your point, not checking a box of did we do this today? They are forcing it that they, they missed the mark and they, they weren't in the conversation that day and stuff like that, which probably produces, uh, shittier content, if I'm being honest.

[00:21:33] Jason Moskal: Exactly. 'cause you're, then it becomes a volume play, right? People think at scale means volume. And to me at scale means what's the quality you're putting out there and is it driving the types of customers or consumers or businesses that you want at scale? Which is a very different approach. So sometimes I find, and it's interesting 'cause we always have this debate.

[00:21:53] My team knows, I hate when we get on calls and they say, oh, we're a thought leader in X, Y, and Z. There's very few thought leaders. Okay. There's very few brands when you think about they have an authoritative position that if a media company or a journalist is looking to do a story on a certain industry that they're saying, oh, that is a person that is a leader and a thought leader in this space.

[00:22:13] So to me it's about are you putting the quality out because the quality is really what shows the substance that your brand has. Not the fact that you did 16 posts in a day, um, that happened to get, you know, a couple thousand likes. That's great. But is it really something that stuck? Is it really something that meant something to who you were trying to reach?

[00:22:32] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. No, I agree. Uh, you worked at agencies, uh, early on in your career. Curious if you have a, uh, a sweet spot for them or a, a special place in your heart, as I typically hear from folks. Uh, but in general, what's your opinion on agencies? How do they fit into the ecosystem, uh, in your current role?

[00:22:49] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I think agencies are important and I think unfortunately they've lost kind of their luster for a number of different reasons. But I think, um, agencies are important for a couple reasons. I. Sometimes when you're in a company and, and having the advantage of working agencies for about seven or eight years and then working client side for the rest of my career.

[00:23:08] Um, what I have realized working in these big organizations is you lose sight of the outside world because all of a sudden you become, and you only see your brand and what your offering is and why it's so important. So the first thing I think agencies do is they're kind of your best friend that's gonna tell you like it is.

[00:23:28] Which I love. So that to me is the quality of a good agency that isn't just agreeing with you to get the business, but kind of tells you like it is because at the end of the day, If you keep telling yourself, oh, we're the best and this is why, and then you're like, wait, why aren't we grabbing market share?

[00:23:42] Or Why aren't we the leader? Well, you're telling yourself a story. Agencies should give you that perspective to say, have you thought about it this way? And so for that primary reason, I love agencies because I think every time I've engaged, whether it was at Bank of America at Ally Meineke, Uh, IHG or most recently, Rondstad, I always feel like they give us that unique perspective where we would think or say one thing because we've been in that industry for so long and they would give us a different way to think about it, a different way to say it, a different way to go to market with it.

[00:24:14] And so that to me is really the benefit to them. Um, I also think that when there're

[00:24:20] Daniel Weiner: before you go on, I was, I'm gonna ask, with that said, do you, uh, I normally have a big debate about, uh, you know, relevancy of industry experience versus outside experience and bringing unique perspective. Does that imply, I'm curious, do you care less about industry, uh, experience and you want an outside perspective or talk me through that.

[00:24:40] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I absolutely do. So I've, I, uh, and you touched on it earlier, I have a very mosaic background. Um, and when people sit there and think, wow, you've done beer, you've done banking, you've done hotels, you've done automotive, now you're doing staffing. What, you know, that feels kind of schizophrenic a little bit, and it's actually the fact that it's mosaic.

[00:24:59] And I think it's important to have a diversity of industry experience even with agencies. And I know a lot of times we've all sat in those agency pitches and you know, if you're with a staffing firm, they're showing you all the staffing stuff that they've done. Or, you know, when I was in, in hospitality, it was all the great hospitality.

[00:25:15] Same thing with banking. The problem is usually when they come, and, and I have a unique perspective, um, when I was with Ally that we were very much a different kind of bank and that was actually a tag that we had at one point internally, that we are a different type of bank. When we would talk with agencies, when they would come to us with their industry experience in banking, that actually was an Achilles heel because we were not trying to be like the industry, we were not trying to be like the bank.

[00:25:42] We were trying to say, how do we set this brand as we go to market and we grow this brand to be different then? And so honestly, the agencies we wound up working with were the ones that didn't have financial, uh, services experience, but had very complimentary industry experiences that we could then apply and say, ah, this is how we can think differently.

[00:26:00] So to me, having diversity in a mosaic background, even from an agency perspective is so important. And I think as agencies try to pitch business, Think about in that pitch, not what you can show that you've done in that particular company's industry, but how other work that you've done in other industries and don't force it, but find those very natural and authentic connections that say, have you thought about doing it this way or that way?

[00:26:26] Because then all of a sudden that's where you're bringing even more value as an agency partner 'cause you're helping the organization think differently.

[00:26:33] Daniel Weiner: I think it's interesting, uh, I asked that question to so many people and it's virtually split. Like I have so many conversations similar to that where yeah, we want a diversity of thought. We think, you know, uh, experience across other industries, you know, brings unique perspective to us. And then I have just as many of those conversations that is we are in this industry, we want industry expertise.

[00:26:51] We wanna see that they've worked with usually their competitors. You know, there's like, if I really boil it down, I'm like, you want somebody who's worked with these five companies? Um, I think my biggest feedback to agencies since I end up, you know, a, a certain layer of coaching is know your audience. If they're pitching you and, and diversity of thought is important to you, then they should know that going into the pitch versus, uh, guessing on what you want to see.

[00:27:13] So, it's definitely interesting, uh, conversation there. Um, my, my favorite question of the entire podcast that I'll ask, that I ask everybody your title, every vendor assumes s v p of Marketing and c m O has $20 billion in budget and they're constantly spending and always looking. How often are you getting hit up?

[00:27:31] LinkedIn, phone, text, the whole shebang.

[00:27:34] Jason Moskal: Yeah, constantly. I mean, that's one thing I can always count on is somebody in business development or sales, uh, agencies is reaching out and saying, here's how we can help your business. Um, so it's a constant flow of whether it's emails or. Uh, direct messages on any variety of different platforms, LinkedIn, um, even Facebook, Instagram, Hey, I saw you work for this brand or this company.

[00:27:57] Um, so it's interesting because when all of a sudden you think, and it's similar to what we were talking earlier, when you think, okay, I'm gonna put a marketing message out there and mine's gonna be so unique. Well, the problem is when yours goes out there with. 17 other messages from the, you know, your competitors, it all looks the same and it's kind of the same thing, right?

[00:28:16] So when agencies are reaching out saying, Hey, have you thought about partnering with us and how we can improve your r o i or your delivery or your KPIs and analytics, um, it's very generic. So all of a sudden, and I'm a big believer, like I always wanna get back to people, right? Because I'm like, we're all humans and I'm really big being a marketer, it's about human connection.

[00:28:35] So what's the, it's the worst when you're in a business development role, you're reaching out and you don't, you hear crickets, right? But it's hard when you're getting such an influx of these emails and these phone calls and these outreaches and everybody's telling you how they can save, save your business, right?

[00:28:49] But they don't know a thing about my business. They don't know a thing about.

[00:28:52] Daniel Weiner: the good gets lumped in with the bad. You miss the good, the very few good messages that are theoretically received to your point, get lumped in with the 98% of the ridiculous ones,

[00:29:03] Jason Moskal: Yeah, exactly. And then you miss it. You absolutely miss maybe potentially who could be a good partner for you.

[00:29:08] Daniel Weiner: Is there anything somebody can send you in a cold outreach when you're not in buying mode that piques your interest? Are you, uh, I presume you have less time. Uh, are you interested in taking potential pitches or demos and stuff from vendors or you will typically task, you know, somebody else on your team, or do you even have time to take calls like that?

[00:29:29] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I definitely do. And I think it's important. 'cause again, it also back to what we were talking earlier about the unique perspectives. It's always good if somebody has a unique idea or has a thought about your business. Um, the thing is, it has to be different. It has to be unique. It can't be something that if you are, one of the things that Ally, um, when I used to sit down with agencies and I'd sit down with media companies, um, I purposely did this, Dan, I, in the middle of a presentation, I would close my eyes.

[00:29:57] And they would ask me, what are you doing? And I said, I'm, I'm listening to your ideas. And I'm thinking, I can see Chase, bank of America, Wells Fargo at the time, Wachovia. I can see all their brands all over this idea.

[00:30:14] Daniel Weiner: I thought you were gonna say you're sleeping 'cause this is boring. I

[00:30:17] Jason Moskal: Sometimes I wish

[00:30:18] Daniel Weiner: a, what a power move.

[00:30:20] Jason Moskal: no, sometimes I wish it was a power nap, but, but, um, I, I would use that example 'cause I'm like, guys, if I can see my competitors' brands on what you're proposing, it's not the right thing for us unless it's something standard. Because again, back to that idea of we were truly trying to find that white space and be a different kind of bank.

[00:30:37] And it was interesting because the first several times I did that, when those media agencies or those agencies came back to me, I can guarantee you they were thinking very differently about our business or the opportunity. So I use it as the example 'cause where, what does pique my interest is when somebody truly does or has done enough homework and has presented themselves in a way that, huh, I haven't thought about that.

[00:31:01] I wanna learn more in terms of what you've been looking at. 'cause you obviously have a point of view and I think it would be good for us to talk and see what that point of view is. So I think if you bring a valuable differentiated point of view that is substantiated with, Hey, you've learned the business versus I'm one of 600 emails you were sending out that day and hoping that you know two people would get back to you.

[00:31:21] You can definitely see the difference. But I think that's where it piques my interest. And then to your other. Part of your question. I think it's important in whatever role you are in an organization, and I hate titles, but whatever role, whether you're right outta school and you're getting started in the marketing world, or you're the C M O and you're part of the C-Suite, I think it's critically important to always find those potential conversations that are gonna pique your interest, that are gonna open you up to thinking about something maybe differently, especially if you've been with an organization for a really long time.

[00:31:53] I've noticed that. Being in all these different industries, there are definitely functions where people have been in the same company or the same industry for 20, 25, 30 years, and I think it's even more important for marketing leaders that have been in those types of roles. Those are the ones that need to be even more open to having those conversations because sometimes you just again, get into such that group think mentality that having those conversations really opens your eyes to a different way of thinking about things.

[00:32:21] Daniel Weiner: I love it. Uh, we had an interesting conversation about this in person. Uh, I'm curious to chat a little more here. I've seen a particularly, uh, big shift, especially since covid of bigger named brands. Moving towards smaller, independent, specialized agencies that do call it one to two. One to two services.

[00:32:40] Great. Uh, what do you think of that? What's your experience with big versus small, which is, you know, relative, but I'm curious your opinion there.

[00:32:47] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I'd say that's a tough question for me because to me the answer is smart agencies, whether they're big or small. Um, I will tell you that I've had some of the, the biggest that I've had the opportunity to work with, with some of the names and the budgets that I've had in my careers. Um, and I've had the opportunity to work with these smaller boutique shops, um, that, you know, maybe 10, 15 upwards near 50 people, right?

[00:33:12] You gotta be smart. Um, it's really important that. You're not in it for yourself, but you're in it for the partnership and for whoever you're trying to pitch and whoever you're trying to be a partner to. Um, where I think some agencies across my career journey have lost their way, is they're constantly looking for, oh, what's the cool creative idea that I can get out there and it's gonna trend, right?

[00:33:37] And then all of a sudden my

[00:33:38] Daniel Weiner: they to win an award versus

[00:33:40] Jason Moskal: Exactly. They wanna win an award or they wanna be featured as the biggest trending story on whatever social platform that 10 trillion people looked at. Right.

[00:33:49] Daniel Weiner: that. They want trip to canne.

[00:33:51] Jason Moskal: yeah, exactly. And it's interesting, and I know this is a case study, and I, I hate to bring this up, but you know, pets.com, everybody said, oh my god, most creative people love the sock puppet.

[00:34:00] Back in the day, it was brilliant. They were out of business three years later. Well, because at the end of the day, A creative marketing campaign doesn't begin and end with the business. So that's why I say it's gotta be smart agencies because the, where I feel very fortunate over my career is when I have identified, whether it's through a pitch R F P process, or just by virtue of an introduction, when I find agencies that are bringing smart ideas or thought provoking ideas that maybe me or my team hasn't thought of.

[00:34:29] I like that because that curiosity is what generates in my mind, smart, good marketing, not an agency that's gonna pitch this idea that's gonna be like, oh, this is brilliant. Um, and I'll give an an example with Ally, right? When we launched Ally, and I know it's now been, you know, 15 years, 14, 15 years, we launched with the creepy banker.

[00:34:50] And it was a banker that was tricking these little kids. Whether it was the pony, it was the remote control car. That was a limited time offer. But what was really cool about that, and it was kind of magic in a bottle. It was a creative idea, but it was a creative idea that was really smart because the key pain point at the time back in the two thousands was the world hated banking and the world hated bankers, right?

[00:35:13] They were the sole cause of the great recession back in the two thousands because they made really bad decisions with subprime loans and all of that, and giving people credit they shouldn't have. So what was brilliant about that is that it was smart. But it stood out and it really defined who we were as being very different in the banking industry.

[00:35:32] So that's one where it was smart. It wasn't about it being this cool, creative idea. It did actually win a CAN award, which was fantastic, but that's not what it was about, because our agencies came and said, look, we wanna basically rally with you to change banking as we know it today. They were smart partners.

[00:35:49] We worked together and we really drove that forward. So again, I don't think it's big or small. I think it's find the right partners that are smart and that are gonna really challenge your thinking in a very productive way. So you get to a great place with your marketing strategy.

[00:36:02] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. My next question was gonna be to talk me through a really great agency experience you had and what made it great. But I'm curious if that's the, if that's the answer to that question, the ally

[00:36:11] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I'll go a little further in saying what worked really well in that agency experience is we had what we called the trust and we had three legs to our stool. We had our creative agency, we had our digital agency. 'cause digital back in the two thousands isn't what it was today. And then we had our media performance, uh, media agency that would help us as well.

[00:36:31] We were the, we were the top of the stool. Our three agencies were the three Lakes. What worked really well is we had a very collaborative relationship. They were in the trenches with us battling what was hard because the marketplace was hard, right? We're launching, we're launching a digital only bank during the great recession when TARP money was being handed out.

[00:36:51] Right? So it was kind of a really crazy time, but it was the fact that those agencies from. Various holding companies worked together as partners with us to really drive great creative. Great innovative ways to bring that creative to market with a message that was highly effective. And, and we did it, um, and grew that, that bank in a very short period of time.

[00:37:15] So that was really great because we felt like they were literally locking arms with us versus just pitching us ideas and hoping that the campaign idea or the media plan they put together would be approved and they could go buy it. So they were less worried about their business and their commissions and their fees, and more worried about, are we going to take on the industry?

[00:37:34] And help Ally be successful in this, and they felt like true partners.

[00:37:38] Daniel Weiner: That's great. I find that to not be the norm, uh, these days when there's multiple agencies involved. I find in general what I hear is that everybody's just trying to steal each other's business, uh, truthfully in front of the client. They're collaborative and nice and stuff behind the scenes, not, uh, not as, uh, collaborative and kumbaya as one would hope.

[00:37:56] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I would say that's probably on the flip side, probably my most troubling or concerning

[00:38:01] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, do do your negative one. That's the most fun Let's

[00:38:05] Jason Moskal: You know, and there's two parts to it. Sometimes it's different agencies and you do feel that, and a client should never feel that, right? If you have hired agencies to work together and be integrated, the client should never feel, even if behind the curtain there's fighting over fees and who's getting what cut and who's gonna lead whatever.

[00:38:22] There should never be that, that point. And the big, you know, the big, um, holding companies, it's the worst when they're supposed to be sisters and brothers, but at the end of the day, they're like cousins that really don't like each other. And when you, the client can definitely see that, it becomes a challenge.

[00:38:40] It's even more harder to kind of swallow. And I've had the benefit of working on many global brands internationally when you've got multiple offices of the same agency and you feel that infighting. That is one thing that at the end of the day, let that happen behind closed doors. Let that happen behind the curtain.

[00:38:58] The client should always feel, whether it's one agency with multiple offices or multiple agencies working together as kind of an integrated partnership, if you will, with one another and with the client. The client should never experience there being fighting over dollars. And there may be, and there probably always will be.

[00:39:14] 'cause at the end of the day, we know that's how the agencies make money, right? But a client is gonna be more willing to give more and more in terms of fees and, and, um, Dollars invested if they feel like the people they've got around the table have their best interest, first and foremost, and their interests secondary.

[00:39:32] Um, but yeah, I've, I've had unfortunately many experiences where we worked with multiple agencies, agencies under holding company umbrellas or a single firm with multiple offices, where you've definitely experienced that and they've lost their eye on the, the, the client's business, which is really hard.

[00:39:51] Daniel Weiner: Do you think a negative agency experience can be salvaged or once you've lost that, uh, that love and feeling, uh, it's over.

[00:39:59] Jason Moskal: Yeah, I'm a big believer of it's not how hard you fall, it's do you dust yourself off, get back up and how you respond. So I always feel like. If you realize through an experience that you did something wrong as an agency, or you approached it the wrong way, or you made your problems, the client's problems, but you've learned from it, you've adjusted it, and you kind of, it's how you respond to it.

[00:40:20] That actually in some instances will earn me more loyalty to that agency because I will realize that one, there's openness and self-awareness to where it went awry, and you've made that pivot. You've made that adjustment. To become a better, stronger partner with, with the client. So to me it's almost a, um, never want an agency to go awry.

[00:40:43] But if it does go awry, I want to see how they respond to it. Now, I will tell you, it's probably a 50 50 shot. Some agencies, they step up to the challenge, they do an awesome job, and they say, look, We missed the mark, but here's what we're gonna do. This is how we're gonna approach it. That's fantastic.

[00:40:58] Others, when they're defensive and justifying everything, that's probably not the right, uh, the right relationship because I want, I want someone that's working. That said, I will also say agencies get a bad rap, because there's two pieces to that equation, right? Everybody always wants to blame when the campaign or the strategy doesn't work.

[00:41:17] It's, oh, fire the agency and do an R F P. Well, what direction was that agency getting from the team, whether it's the C M O or

[00:41:25] Daniel Weiner: in, garbage out.

[00:41:26] Jason Moskal: Exactly, and I think that's where clients have a tough time looking themselves in the mirror and saying, did I give the right direction? Was I clear on my priorities? I. Or did I basically throw a bunch of Skittles at them, expected them to make this beautiful rainbow that everybody wanted to be a part of.

[00:41:42] And in essence, it wound up being, uh, you know, wedding soup, if you will, and it didn't work. So I do always think that clients have to look at that relationship too and say, am I doing the right things and providing the right input.

[00:41:54] Daniel Weiner: What do you think agencies get wrong oftentimes? Or what's something you wish they uh, they quote unquote got?

[00:42:01] Jason Moskal: I wish they would spend more time understanding a client's business. I think sometimes, um, and marketers in general, even inside companies and organizations, they get a bad rap that they're like, oh, they don't understand the business, they're the creative folks, right? Um, I think if agencies took time, especially once they won a piece of business, take the first 30 days to understand the business, be on the front lines with the customers.

[00:42:26] If it's a, if it's a retailer, go out into their stores, right? And don't you do it during the pitch and say, oh, look, our team visited three stores. Hey, that's great.

[00:42:34] Daniel Weiner: giving all my secrets away that I tell people to do. I'm like, go take a of yourselves there.

[00:42:40] Jason Moskal: But it's, but, but I will say, here's the problem. They're in the business and then they go into their, into their art, art studios and, and they don't touch the client's business again. So that's why I say take the first 30 or 45 days and make that part of the point of difference with you as an agency partner that says, look, we don't wanna start developing a creative approach on day two.

[00:42:58] We wanna understand your business on day two, so we can come with a smarter, better, sharper pencil to help you win in the market. So I think that's the one thing I would give agencies that that piece of advice is take the time to understand the business.

[00:43:11] Daniel Weiner: I think that is, uh, don't, don't kill the messenger. I blame the marketers for that often, more times than not, because what I find is they sign an agreement and somebody's like, Hey, we want to take some time. They're like, Uhuh, we gotta start working tomorrow. Like, need, we need to go, go, go. And there's no, they just kind of like assume that they know the business and, and most agencies will say, Hey, we want to do.

[00:43:35] Some strategy work. We wanna do these things for the first 30, 45 days, something like that. And they're like, Uhuh, or you can do it, but like, we also gotta start doing this stuff, you know? 'cause they just want to go 'cause there are so many priorities and they've usually waited too long to hire the agency potentially.

[00:43:50] And they need to go. So I do think it's, uh, super valuable insight to give to agencies. I find that the other side would be a note to marketers. Like if somebody's telling you they wanna learn, like let 'em within reason.

[00:44:03] Jason Moskal: Yeah, but you're, you're right. So for, for those listing on the client side, you're exactly right. I, and I would blame the marketers too. I will tell you that in every company I've worked in, when I say I'm going into the market, whether it's visiting Bank of America retail branches, whether it was staying in hotels, whether it was going into Meineke shops, or whether it's going into the branches at Randstad, That is one of the first things I do when I join a company because it's the only way I can understand the ins and outs of the business.

[00:44:28] One of the things I loved at IHG, my first couple months on, I got to actually work at a hotel for two days and I got to touch everything from catering to the bar, to front desk, to housekeeping, to engineering. It was so eye-opening to understand the nuts and bolts of how a hotel works, which made me a better marketer.

[00:44:48] So you're exactly right. It's, Hey, let's get in. You gotta go do this plan, you gotta do this campaign. Whatever it is, just take a minute, whether you're inside a company or you're an agency winning a piece of business, because that will make your ideas and your plans go so much further.

[00:45:02] Daniel Weiner: What are you most excited about in the marketing space at the moment?

[00:45:07] Jason Moskal: I think the fact that every day is different. I mean, you think about a year ago, right? You think about AI and there was definitely AI conversation, chat, G B T. All of a sudden it's changing the world of education. It's changing the world of marketing. I love the fact that I work in a function that is, and throwing no shade on, on our finance and accounting folks all over the world.

[00:45:28] But at the end of the day, they are tried and true to their accounting rules from decades ago. Right? So it's the same spreadsheets, the same rules apply. What I love and am most excited about marketing is we are literally constantly innovating and changing. I. Um, and the ability to flex our muscle in our brains to say, not all that innovation and change makes sense for my company or my brand, but these things do.

[00:45:53] So I love the fact that it really, that curiosity allows us to flex our marketing muscle every day, and we have to think about when something new comes out. Does this make sense? If it does make sense, how do we approach it? How do we make it part of our omni-channel mix or marketing, uh, approach to, to how we're gonna grow our business?

[00:46:11] That is what keeps me excited. Um, you know, and the media landscape is changing, right? It was funny. I remember when I was working. At at Bank of America and you know, if you weren't in tv, you were dead. Right? And now it's like people are like, wait, TV's part of your media buy? So it's just interesting how even the media landscape has changed a lot too, in terms of how do you reach people in an effective and powerful way, and that is changing weekly as well.

[00:46:36] So I just love being in this function because of that and staying on top of all those trends. And how do you, um, integrate what your business' objectives and goals are to what's available to you?

[00:46:47] Daniel Weiner: I'm curious if you have the same answer to my final question, which is also what keeps you up at night from a marketing and business standpoint. Could, could, could be argued. It's that everything changes every day. But, I'll, I'll let you answer for yourself.

[00:47:00] Jason Moskal: I think the, you know, as soon as it is interesting, 'cause when you think about back in the day focus groups, you would hear focus groups, then you do quantitative to validate it, and then you'd be like, okay, this is gospel, right? This is, this is the work. And then you take a couple weeks and months to put things together.

[00:47:15] Now, as soon as those words are spoken from a consumer or a business, all of a sudden next Monday is different. So what keeps me up at night is you do have to move quickly. I. But the consumer mind and the business mind is changing so fast that it's how do you as a marketer stay ahead of that and make sure that you're gleaning the insights that truly are gonna have staying power, that are gonna help your company or your brand stick out and grow versus something that could be a fly-by-night trend.

[00:47:45] Um, that really keeps me up at night, especially when. Back to stakeholders. When they hear something, they don't look at it through a marketing lens. They're looking at it through a finance lens or an operations lens. You know, we're looking at it as, okay, how do we go to market with that as a point of difference for our brand, and does that make sense for us or not?

[00:48:03] And make sure that non marketers are not pushing the marketing team to chase those trends because there is so much coming out in the mind of the consumer and in the mind of businesses, in terms of what they're interested in, and it's really hard to keep up. So that, that definitely is what is what's keeping me up at night.

[00:48:20] Daniel Weiner: Okay. Well I hope you get some sleep. Uh, we'll wrap up with a couple fun ones. What was your very first job?

[00:48:26] Jason Moskal: Very first job, I was a Y M C, a summer guidance counselor, so I got to work with, uh, elementary school kids and we had a lot of fun doing sports and we did some academic stuff as well. But, um, I did that after school and on the weekends and it was a lot of fun.

[00:48:41] Daniel Weiner: Anything from that job translate to, uh, what you do today? Maybe.

[00:48:46] Jason Moskal: Uh, I think two things, patience and curiosity. I mean, one of the things that it would tire me out as a 16 year old, but these kids had, they were never short of questions, right? They were always curious. And I will say that's something that I've stuck with, uh, that has stuck with me. Uh, in addition to just having patience.

[00:49:03] Um, it's just dealing with big kids now and having patience with them and making sure that you constantly stay curious.

[00:49:09] Daniel Weiner: That's a good way to look at it. What would your, uh, final meal be?

[00:49:13] Jason Moskal: My final what?

[00:49:14] Daniel Weiner: final meal?

[00:49:15] Jason Moskal: Final meal would be, um, I will say I love Mastro's Steakhouse. Uh, Mastro's Filet is fantastic with their fries and their butter cake for dessert, it's, if I had one last meal, it would definitely be flying up to New York or Chicago or Vegas and enjoying a Mastro's filet.

[00:49:33] Daniel Weiner: Okay. And then my final question, who is somebody who inspires you either personally or professionally, or both?

[00:49:39] Jason Moskal: Yeah. Um, I don't mean this, this cliche, but it, it truly is my family. Um, my family inspires me every day. My wife's actually a fourth

[00:49:47] Daniel Weiner: have to say that if they're

[00:49:48] Jason Moskal: You have to say that, but I'll tell you why. Dan. Um, my wife, she's a fourth grade teacher, and what I love about, she's been back teaching now for, for three years. And I will tell you everywhere I go, um, I will have parents and students come up and be like, are you Mrs.

[00:50:04] Moskal's husband? And I'm like, wow, I am, I am writing your coattails. But what I love about and why she inspires me is that she has made such an impact on these kids' lives. And I don't just mean from a math and science perspective and social studies, which is what she teaches, but these kids literally come in on day one, which starts next week here in Atlanta.

[00:50:25] And they leave in May, completely changed. And I always say to her, it's not about did you have the lesson plan? Did the principal see that you approached the principals the right way? But I literally have told her, you are having such an impact on these kids that they're coming up to me when I'm like at the grocery store or at the mall.

[00:50:45] And they're saying, what an impact that you have had on their lives. So that inspires me from a business and a personal perspective. My kids inspire me. I've got a baseball player, a cheerleader, and a musician. I've got three kids. My baseball player is my oldest, he's 16, he's gonna be a junior. Um, he inspires me because we all know that baseball is one of the toughest sports because you fail more than you succeed.

[00:51:09] And one of the things that he inspires me is his continual resilience. That even in those, you know, 20 games where he's not gotten a hit and he is struck out, he's made me realize it doesn't matter how many times you go at something, you still get back up and you go at it. My daughter is a competitive cheerleader and she brings her energy and her a game even when her team doesn't have it.

[00:51:31] She truly is a leader, and I see that every time they take the mat. Um, they've had the opportunity to go to nationals in Orlando, and they've done fantastic, but I just love what she brings to that mat and to her team every day. And my musician, it's because he's trying something that the rest of the family doesn't have.

[00:51:47] Right? So he loves performing. Um, so he is doing electric guitar now. He's been taking lessons and I love the fact that he's willing to try something that isn't safe. I. Uh, it's something that he has a passion for and he wants to try it. So when I think about the, the four of them, my wife and my three kids, they all bring something different to the table that really inspire me every day to make sure that I'm always having an impact on people's lives.

[00:52:10] I'm resilient. When the chips are down, I'm bringing my energy in my A game, and I'm always willing to try something new and different.

[00:52:17] Daniel Weiner: It sounds like I should have had them on. I'm slumming it with the marketer family. It

[00:52:21] Jason Moskal: You.

[00:52:21] Daniel Weiner: it they're all an awesome stuff. I was gonna say it. That's a very nice sentiment. It also, I think, provides a i'll, I'll leave with something on my end. It provides perspective. I'll equate back to your wife of like, Helping mold young minds and like when myself included and marketers, we all get stressed of like the day-to-day and the, the myth of the marketing emergency.

[00:52:40] Like there are far greater things going on in the world. Everybody's doing their best. So, uh, keep things in perspective. But, uh, no, I'll have, I'll have them on, uh, next time when

[00:52:49] Jason Moskal: Next time.

[00:52:50] Daniel Weiner: again. But, uh, nah, I appreciate you coming on. This was awesome. Uh, some fantastic insight. And, uh, I usually, uh, tell everybody yeah, if they wanna find you, find you on LinkedIn, but I'll tell them to send a, a good message.

[00:53:02] You'll, I presume you will get a bunch of people once this goes live in a couple weeks, I will reference this podcast. That happens a lot now. So this will be the new you see for a while. I saw you on Danny's podcast and that's their thing. So I apologize in advance for that.

[00:53:15] Jason Moskal: No problem. No, I, I really appreciate it. So thanks so much for the invite.

[00:53:19] Daniel Weiner: Awesome. I will talk to you soon.

[00:53:20] Jason Moskal: All right. Take care, Dan.