[00:00:00] Bulbul Hooda: Think about medicine. So, if you're, you know, stomach is upset, you're gonna go to a gastro, if you have a heart problem, you're gonna go a cardiologist, if you, you know, so on and so forth, if your mental health is not well, you're gonna see a psychiatrist.

[00:00:13] And that to me is the specific job of agencies in, you know, brand and marketing side of things. They are experts of their specialties. 

[00:00:23] Daniel Weiner: Hello, and welcome to Episode 3 of the YouShouldTalkTo podcast. I am Daniel Weiner, and this podcast is still currently brought to you by myself and YouShouldTalkTo, at least until a sponsor decides to pony up the big bucks, maybe after today, and, uh, my awesome guest. YouShouldTalkTo pairs brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies and, or freelancers for marketing and tech needs.

[00:01:22] Why? Because finding great agencies are a pain in the ass. I'm super excited today to be joined by Bulbul Hooda, CMO of Vella Biosciences, and also one of the companies that I've helped with a pretty robust social media agency

[00:01:35] Daniel Weiner: search. Thank you so much for joining us, Bulbul. 

[00:01:38] Bulbul Hooda: Thank you for having me, Daniel. 

[00:01:40] Daniel Weiner: Tell us a little bit about yourself. You've been at brands like L'Oreal, Unilever, and now you're at Vella. How did your, uh, career get you to this point so far? How, how'd we get here?

[00:01:49] Bulbul Hooda: Uh, it's very interesting, actually. So, mine was a quintessential beauty marketing career path, so to say, and I started working back in India where I'm from. So, I started my career at L'Oreal and from there to Unilever in India, and then I transitioned over to New York with Unilever, working across categories, uh, from the start, you know, color, cosmetics, skincare, and then, eventually, I ended up at Shiseido in the fragrances category.

[00:02:18] So, kind of seen it all on the beauty side of things. And then, due to some personal reasons I had to relocate to Arizona, which was something that I hadn't anticipated, and I also hadn't anticipated that there will be almost zero career options for me, uh, here in Scottsdale, but I was meeting a lot of people, and you know the power of networking, I think it can really lead to so many great consequences as it did for me.

[00:02:48] I met someone, uh, who was heading marketing for, uh, Viagra back in the day when the company was based here, and, uh, she told me that the person who helped developed Viagra, who was the principal investigator, has made something for women, which is a topical product, and, you know, they've been test behind it and things

[00:03:12] Bulbul Hooda: looking great, but they are looking to position the product as a beauty, or wellness offering, if you like, because, you know, it's possible to bring it to market in a non-pharmaceutical way, unlike Viagra. So, you know, she said, "I don't know if you wanna meet with them, see how it goes, is this something that interests you..."

[00:03:33] But I said, "I don't know anything about sexual wellness, or this category." She said, "But you do know about beauty. So, they know about sexual wellness, and they got the product, do you think you can help build a brand around it?" And, you know, one thing led to the other, and as I always say that one should always take chances in life because I'm so fortunate to be working with this group of people on this brand Vella, and, uh, right here from Arizona.

[00:04:01] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, it's the power of networking, too. I'm a firm believer in taking chances and risks, as well, but also being open to as many conversations as humanly possible. before we move on, tell us a little bit more specifically about what Vella is, you know, it's not your average CPG product, to some it's a little bit taboo, and a little bit out there and stuff like that. Fill us in more around like, what it is, who you target, and kind of like a little bit about the science around it. 

[00:04:24] Bulbul Hooda: So, that's actually, you left me with a great segue. It is a taboo topic, it is not your quintessential CPG offering, which we are hoping to change with everything we do at Vella. It is a sexual wellness product, it's a scientific breakthrough, first of its kind, pre-play topical serum, uh, for helping women with arousal and orgasm,

[00:04:45] and this has been a challenge, you know, from years, centuries, uh, it's been overlooked because, one, the female anatomy has been very complicated for people to figure out, and, uh, I personally believe that it wasn't just necessary because for women to have, pleasure is not a natural consequence for women to procreate,

[00:05:07] Bulbul Hooda: unlike men. So, this was, uh, you know, probably, I was shocked to hear that the last time there was a true breakthrough in female sexual health was the birth control pill in the 1960s, and I can even argue that I'm not sure if that was an innovation for women, or also actually targeting men. And so, that said this flagship product, you know, I called it the sensual

[00:05:30] intelligence in a bottle because that's really what it was, uh, you know, something that you can apply topically, and it, uh, helps women with a simple benefit, but so unachievable of pleasure, I thought it's such a great story here to tell, and why should it be taboo? Why should, why can't we do things to normalize this?

[00:05:50] And therefore, we built very intentionally this prestige brand around it, which builds aspiration, which brings these conversations to the forefront, which was integral to our DNA really, and that we've been in the business for over a year now with just the flagship, and that led us to believe that there is so many white spaces, so many underserved sub segments within the sexual wellness landscape that we are bringing new innovations to market.

[00:06:17] In fact, in two weeks from now, talking to each of those underserved sub segments, and I still believe we are just scratching the surface, there is so much to do because, you know, unfortunate as it is, but women, and a lot of other sub segments have just been left behind in the pursuit of, uh, sexual health. 

[00:06:37] Daniel Weiner: Sure, and coming from big brands like Unilever and L'Oreal, and stuff like that. What's it been like, uh, being at, you know, a smaller upstart brand, and also to that end, like, marketing a product that still is considered taboo, if you run into any roadblocks with, like, regulation, or what you can say, or, or people freaking out about, you know, this category in general?

[00:06:58] I know, uh, sex makes some people uncomfortable, so I'm sure you've run into some, I don't know, backlash is the right word, but, uh, interesting, uh, takeaways.

[00:07:06] Bulbul Hooda: I think so, you know, it's been a very steep and very gratifying learning curve, these past two years. We started working together back, uh, in 2020, right in the dead center of the global lockdown, so to say, the infamous year, but it turned out to be so fruitful for us. So, there were so many first, you know, first of all, new city, new company, new category, all of that in one package, a new, uh, sort of situation, which was a global pandemic, which, you know, brought with it such so many uncertainties.

[00:07:41] The company was set up virtually, so I had never met my team members, uh, in fact, I only ever met everybody in person this past June, so after two years of working together, so, you know, somebody like, in marketing, I've always been used to being in communication, being in constant touch, and, you know, I'm a people's person,

[00:08:01] I need to have that level of connection. So, the learning curve, personally, was, you know, one was from a big company to a small company, but interestingly, it happened in the middle of the pandemic, so working completely virtually, never have, have never met the people I'm working with in person, and then there was the nuance of this category

[00:08:23] which taught me so many things. So, all the, you know, the playbook was really basically thrown out of the window. Things that worked for beauty do not necessarily work for sexual wellness, even though we are striving to build a brand similar to in that prestige beauty and wellness space. Why? Because female pleasure is such a taboo in, you know, talk about social media restrictions, Facebook, we cannot advertise anything on the platform.

[00:08:49] The website gets, uh, blocked out. We can't advertise, so social media channels for advertising were a complete no. Interest-based advertising was still open, so search played a big role in our success, word of mouth, which, you know, amplified as influencer marketing played a huge organic content, influencer marketing,

[00:09:11] emails are so critical for us, we have a base of about 80,000 email subscribers, and isn't that a telling sign that people are curious, they wanna know about this category, they wanna learn about products like this, uh, so what we do is we found methods to sort of go around all the restrictions, what we will not do,

[00:09:31] and we did not, is compromise on the language and the aesthetic of the brand because there has been so much misinformation about the category. So many nicknames given to anatomy, you know, that shouldn't have been, and we realized that guys, we are in 2021, this is no way to talk about, you know, if we can't talk about it, how are we going to sell this?

[00:09:51] So, we did not compromise on our, you know, brand DNA, the brand ethos that vagina is a vagina, and we are gonna say it, an orgasm, you know, whatever it takes we are gonna go ahead, it's uncomfortable, but that's the whole point. We have to make these uncomfortable conversations to in the end, normalize it. So, you know, it's been, like I said, a steep learning curve, both on marketing side of things, restrictions, but also the challenges of a startup versus a well oil conglomerate,

[00:10:21] you know, where everybody's, uh, jobs are very defined, and in very specific guardrails, but a person, like, and it's a very personal preference for me, I've recognized this after spending 14 or 15 years in that side of things, I was preparing myself to do this, I don't think I can go back to the structure of a conglomerate, again, because I thrive in chaos.

[00:10:46] I love to find a method in the madness, which while I was given me ample opportunity to, I don't think I'm the same marketer, or the same person I was two years ago.

[00:10:56] Daniel Weiner: That's great. To that end, I know you talked about, like, circumventing some of the things that were limiting, such as social, or paid social at least, and things like that, to kind of move into, like, the meat of how we got introduced to each other, you know, prior to getting in touch with me, and your past career, and also at Vella, like, when you needed help, when you needed a third party, when you needed an agency, or a vendor for something,

[00:11:15] Daniel Weiner: where were you typically going?

[00:11:17] So, actually, you know, and this is also a very big debate about, so I'm a firm believer that agencies are, you know, almost the backbone of the success of a brand and company. 

[00:11:29] Daniel Weiner: Interesting, that, that's not the, not the norm of what I get for most people when I ask that question.

[00:11:34] Bulbul Hooda: No, I do believe it because, you know, they are, uh, how do you say, think about it, and, you know, I like this analogy a lot. Think about medicine. So, if you're, you know, stomach is upset, you're gonna go to a gastro, if you have a heart problem, you're gonna go a cardiologist, if you, you know, so on and so forth, if your mental health is not well, you're gonna see a psychiatrist.

[00:11:55] And that to me is the specific job of agencies in, you know, brand and marketing side of things, they are experts of their specialties. So, you know, and I can oversee everything, I've done everything, but I've never had the chance, there is just not enough time in a career to really become experts of every single aspects.

[00:12:18] So, you know, as marketers at best, we are generalists, and then to be able to find those specific subject matter experts, bring them together to, you know, build that A team, and I can say, given the successes Vella has just seen over the past two years, I will not shy away from saying that it's a huge part contribution of the agency partners we work with. So, you know, that's 100% true. 

[00:12:44] Daniel Weiner: That's great.

[00:12:45] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah.

[00:12:45] Daniel Weiner: I, I, I think part of the reason I get a differing, I, I completely agree with you to a certain extent, I think a lot of it is, uh, a tagline I've been using a lot lately is finding an agency is easy, finding the right agency is really hard. I think a lot of brands that I speak with just don't search long enough, truthfully, like they end up giving in to agencies that they're not super thrilled about, at least on the front end, just because they don't want to have, uh, you know, 10 more conversations, even though it may yield finding the perfect fit for them. 

[00:13:14] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah, no, I would, uh, disproportionately invest time in finding because you know, it's not just about, one part is, of course, a big, like, sanity check is their expertise, but then there's also synergies with, you know, your leadership style, but also your company, are there shared values, and things like that. So, to answer a question, before we met, I was going back to a lot of, you know, past experiences because having worked with three big companies, uh, one has been, uh, in contact with very many agencies,

[00:13:48] so people, and, you know, things, sometimes you, in that moment, you may or may not be working with an agency, but something stays with you. So, I went back to some of those, I also leveraged my network, like I said, power of network, you know, people who are currently working on other brands, my colleagues, my friends, peers, uh, that who are you, you know, which is your agency, do you recommend them,

[00:14:09] uh, and, you know, be candid, give me frank feedback, uh, so I did meet a lot of people, and I think some of them were even good, uh, but the challenge was that, you know, what we were building at Vella, and as a marketer my job is have, is to have that pristine clarity of vision of where am I going, and we were building this unique positioning for Vella, which sort of meets at the intersection of, uh, scientific, prowess, and prestige wellness.

[00:14:39] And it's a very, it's a sweet spot that never existed before, so like I said, I had to throw away my playbook, but so did the agencies, 

[00:14:47] Daniel Weiner: Sure.

[00:14:48] Bulbul Hooda: none, this category did not exist before. So, I think a lot of the shortcomings were coming from that, you know, there was no place to reference that how do we pitch this company?

[00:15:00] And that really was my pain point more than anything else that I think they were great in what they were doing, this was just something new that was never experienced before. 

[00:15:10] Daniel Weiner: Sure. There's something you said a few minutes ago that I wanted to point out, as well, that I completely agree with, like, you know, all of these agencies as well, and I talk about it a lot is, it's as much personality as anything else, like, you know, you do take a little bit of a leap of faith and like a common negative, I hear about agencies is, oh, you, you get pitched by the A team, and then you get turned over to, you know, the B team, or something like that,

[00:15:31] but, again, on the front end, like, it is a leap of faith, you, you trust the people that you're talking to, but you don't even get to do the work if you don't like the people, you know?

[00:15:39] So, like on the front end, it is fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, a little bit of a popularity contest and a leap of faith that, like, once the work actually starts, it's gonna be aligned with what you've been sold to. To that end, like, you talked to, if I remember correctly, like 10 to 15 agencies prior to us starting our process together, which is a lot of conversations, it's probably 10 or 15 hours, and, and some follow ups of your life. Talk me through that process a little bit, like, with those, you know, however many you talk to on the front end, does something stick out at you of like, why it felt like, you know, none of those were potentially the right fit for you all?

[00:16:15] Bulbul Hooda: Before we chatted, or after our process began?

[00:16:19] Daniel Weiner: Before, before we chatted, the agencies that you found on your own and stuff like that. 

[00:16:23] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah. So, you know, a big part, and, and I pride myself in that intuition. So, there are two parts, right? So, after being in the industry for 15 years, 14 years, when we started the process, and then second part is intuition. I can understand very quickly because, you know, one, I'm getting to an agency because I want to benefit from their expertise.

[00:16:47] I know that I'm paying a premium for this compared to building an in-house team, and in a large conglomerate, I'd probably be doing both, there'll be an internal team that we will be building and, you know, upskilling, and at the same time, there'll be external third-party agencies. In a small company, in a startup,

[00:17:05] you just don't have either the luxury of time to train and build an internal team, or the money to waste in, uh, inexperienced agency partners, or something that doesn't click. So, you know, credentials aside, I need to look at you in your face and talk to you to fa, you know, my intuition will tell me if this is going to be a good, uh, fit or not, based on "Do you understand the brief?"

[00:17:33] Because a lot of times, you know, agencies, and, again, I am a believer in agencies, but I can write probably a long letter about all the shortcomings that they need to also, you know, zero in on because there, there is always room for improvement as it is as much for us, as much, you know, for any company. So, what I have, personally, been very put off with is a cookie cutter approach presented to me,

[00:17:59] specifically after I have invested the time to write you a long brief, write you exactly what my goals are, tell you where this company is and what are we trying to build, the short-term vision and a long-term vision, so it almost felt like I have wasted my time putting through the effort and then somebody on the agency side just thought, "Oh, this is great,

[00:18:22] we can just repurpose the presentation we had on Thursday for client C for Vella." And that's been my biggest pain point was like, "This is not working." And, I mean, and in the end, it's left me with like, "Are you being serious right now? Come on, you know."

[00:18:39] Daniel Weiner: Sure. Is there a way, before we get to like, once we started working together, how can an agency stand out in your opinion during the sales process, or like prior to actually engaging? What puts an agency on the map with you, and gets you to say like, "Yeah, I'm really impressed with what they put forward." 'Cause what I get from the other side, from agencies, often time is, you know, we don't want to put in too much work and effort before we know more of, you know, what's going on and having some conversation and stuff.

[00:19:05] So, like, a common feedback I get from brand marketers regarding discovery calls is like, "Oh, they didn't come in with, like, 50 million questions, or they didn't seem as prepared as we would've liked." Conversely, coming from agency side, we used to have, you know, a lot of conversation about like, "Well, we don't want to come to the table with too much because if it's not aligned with what they're looking for, like, we're gonna get disqualified."

[00:19:25] So, like, we're always looking for a happy medium, but in your opinion, like, what can an agency do to stand out? 

[00:19:31] Bulbul Hooda: I think, you know, so, I'm gonna first start with an analogy. So, as a marketer, my end, end user, my customer is the person who's gonna buy my product, and I will leave no stone unturned to find a way to get to my customer, you know, whatever it takes, I'm gonna try advertising, I'm gonna try organic content,

[00:19:53] I'm going to try word of mouth, sampling, emails, mailers, you name it. I will find a way that I'm not retargeting, I'm not missing out on any customer. Likewise, I think from an agency's perspective, their customer is the client, and that intention, when that is missing, you know, I love an agency when they come prepared, when they've done their homework, it's not so hard,

[00:20:17] there is so much information available, you know, just secondary data, figure out what you're talking about, have, you know, you don't need to be experts of my category, but show me that you are experts of what you know, and how you can fit this to what I'm looking for. My biggest thing is read the brief because you give, you know, you provide a big template for us to fill.

[00:20:39] And what is most frustrating is when the pitch comes back, I'll say, "Did anybody even open the email?" Because if you did, at least these will not be your first three slides, you know, at least not that. So, I think internalizing your, cookie cutter approach does no longer exist, you know, if for us as marketers, no two customers are the same.

[00:20:59] It's the world we live in, it's customization and personalization, and I feel it's the same from an agency's perspective, no two companies are the same. They're definitely not looking for the exact same solutions. I got a weird, you know, and I get a lot of pitches from various agencies through LinkedIn.

[00:21:16] Daniel Weiner: I can imagine. 

[00:21:17] Bulbul Hooda: And I feel like the approach is all wrong. So, this one specific one, which, you know, I normally, I, they straight up go to trash. So, you know, I'm saying it here so that if you're, don't waste your time, those, I'm not reading those. Sometimes those are copy paste in a way that the eager salesperson has even forgotten to change my, the name to my name.

[00:21:36] So, I get emails, you know, generic emails, but the specific one that got my goat was, I, you know, first of all, already assuming that I don't know what I'm doing, so you are telling me you haven't thought about this. No, trust me, this is our business, we have thought about it, so don't tell me, you know, we, we haven't, we, we have, and the second was, I'm going to pitch you something,

[00:21:59] if you like it, we can work together, if you don't, I'll let you steal my ideas, I mean, I'm not interested in stealing your ideas, thank you very much. And I never respond to this kind of junk, but this one has specifically took the liberty to, and as I’m saying, "Thank you for taking the time to reaching out, trust me,

[00:22:17] we have thought of all the things that you have not even approached yet. And second, we have a fantastic agency partner and a creative team in-house, so we assure you, we don't have any interest in stealing your ideas." You know, it's, I hope it landed the message, but it's what you said.

[00:22:33] Daniel Weiner: Did they, did they reply to that?

[00:22:34] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah, something, or, you know, " I'm sorry, I offended you." Yes, you did, and now you've lost your chance, or like, there are these agency pictures that come to me with, you know, a video embedded in an email, or like, do you really think I have the time to see the video that you are blasting out to 10,000 people at the same time? I don’t. Don't waste your time, you know.

[00:22:55] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. As, as somebody who was at an agency for seven and a half years, I've, I've done every cringe worthy, uh, sales practice at some point in my life, but quickly learned many, many years ago that you, you really can't, you have to, in my opinion, think long term to be in, uh, you know, and there's not necessarily even like a quote, unquote real sales position at many agencies, it's done by, you know, the founders and stuff like that, doing sales, but you really just cannot

[00:23:21] be successful, in my opinion, unless you're playing the long-term game in agency world. Some of the relationships I have today were built, literally 8, 10 years ago, and are just now coming to fruition because I haven't tried selling to them, and have, you know, genuinely been a resource, I joke that I was unintentionally building my business for, you know, the last decade and didn't realize it, but, uh, no, it's, it's interesting to hear that, for sure. 

[00:23:44] I think the first thing an agency should do is help build some trust and credibility, you know, and without trust, I mean, Daniel, we've worked together, and, you know, you found me the right solution for me, so I, now you have bought my trust for life. So, tomorrow when I'm looking for another agency, I know that you took the time to hear me out, you know what I'm looking for, and if you are introducing me to someone it's going to be credible.

[00:24:10] Bulbul Hooda: So, I think trust is the most important thing that, you know, in your 15-minutes presentation, even if you don't wanna put in a lot of effort, at least find a way to sell me your trust, tell me that I can, you know, these are people who know what they're doing, and that oftentimes, in that lazy approach, that why should we put too much effort before we get the account? I think that's what is missing if it can really boil it down to that.

[00:24:34] Daniel Weiner: Sure. No, I, first of all, I appreciate that, thank you. I'm glad I've, uh, come off as trustworthy. It's funny you bring that up, too because if I remember correctly, and it's funny, like, you know, generally when I'm talking about the agencies that I work with, and I work with like 60 or so agencies now to varying capacities,

[00:24:49] people are like, "Oh, your agency is perfect." I'm like now, like, they make mistakes just as well, like I like to think they're reasonably nice people, they all, you know, do good work, I would never recommend anybody that I didn't think was wildly capable, however, to that point, if I remember correctly, I introduced you to three agencies.

[00:25:04] You ended up hiring one, but I do recall one of them who I won't name here, immediately was disqualified, and I, if I remember correctly, 'cause they just didn't listen, I believe part of the ask in the brief was like, we're really happy with our creative, you know, we don't want to focus on like changing up our brand and the creative, and I believe your feedback was within like five minutes, pardon my French, they shit all over the creative. So, to that end, like, you know, 98% of my job is like just communication in general. So, to hear that I’m like, you know, I take a painstaking amount of effort on my end to work with people like yourself, and brands, and understand their needs, and to hear that I'm like, "Oh my God, like, you know, I, I, I gave this to you on a silver platter,

[00:25:44] so we'll, we'll cross them off." But, you know, in regards to, like, the 

[00:25:47] Daniel Weiner: agency that you did end up hiring, and I believe another one made it to roughly a later round, when you were speaking to only a few agencies, like, what ultimately stood out, if I remember, like, price was relatively comparable, 

[00:25:59] it wasn't, you know, some crazy variance, and you picked them 'cause they were cheap or anything like that, like what ultimately stood out to you, and, and ended up winning your business?

[00:26:09] Bulbul Hooda: I think the intention. So just the legwork that the team put together before meeting us, you know, and they went above and beyond. They did some, and it's very easy in today's world, but people don't do that, you know, they went that extra mile, they did a survey with our demographic. So, they picked it from the brief, and they went ahead and interviewed people in that category, women in that category.

[00:26:31] At that time, it was a women targeted. So, that already, like, checked a big box on me that, okay, so they did not know about the category, and they went ahead, and, you know, did this one-week survey to come back with some learnings and substantiate their hypotheses with data. I'm a data driven person, you know, as much as I love the magic, you know, there is something to be said, the balance between poet and peasants, as you call it. So, I

[00:26:57] Daniel Weiner: Art and sci, art and science, both of them together in per, in perfect harmony.

[00:27:01] Bulbul Hooda: Exactly, so, I really appreciated all the legwork, I really, what stood out to me is that they took the time to read the long brief, and it was long, uh, you know, I'm guilty of that. Uh, 

[00:27:14] Daniel Weiner: You, you'd be surprised how many marketers I work with who do not have a brief and outline, anything, and I have an intake document where I encourage people to do that, but I think that's the first step in success, even if it ends up changing, just hearing your, seeing your thought process on paper is just so crucial. I think for folks like you, as well, to evaluate agency partners, apples to apples, if you just go in and have, like, wildly open-ended conversations, typically they're all gonna be positive-ish, but you'll get back like a huge variance in the scope as well as the budget, and it's generally not helpful for you if you get back, you know, three proposals at 50 grand, 500 grand in a million, how do you evaluate those?

[00:27:54] Bulbul Hooda: So, this my first lesson in marketing, when I first started as a young assistant brand manager in L'Oreal, you know, we would meet a lot of agency or freelancers, and when the product would come back, my first boss taught me this, my most important lesson that go back to the brief because it's crap in and crap out,

[00:28:13] so, if your brief is not good enough, don't expect wonders, they're acting off of the brief, so, as, you know, and I hope everybody did, but in my career, I've met people who've read the brief, so I'm a person, I'm committed to making, you know, my vision on paper crystal clear, like there will be no ambiguity because

[00:28:32] sometimes so much enlo, is lost in conversations, you know, maybe you didn't understand me, maybe I was using metaphors, maybe don't leave that two chance, this is the single most important thing, it's a big expense for the company, respect the process and respect the responsibility the company has in you that, you know, you can deliver.

[00:28:52] So, I would take the time to write a very detailed brief, and, you know, what gets written, gets done. So, that's the start point, you know, you, you, you invest, and marketers today don't, especially the younger kids, you know, I see, it’s like, "Where is the brief?" I wanna, you know, even if it's a small, like TikTok video, if you don't tell the influencer, or the creator, what do you want from, you know, what do you wanna achieve?

[00:29:15] What is it you want them to say? They can't imagine this, you know, they can't do this on their own, unless you are crystal clear, and also, I would go as detailed as, "These are the angles we wanna shoot," this is what you must say, "These are, this is the place where you could bring in your own style," and then after that detailed process is when, you know, so this is something that stood out with the partners we picked is that they went through the pains of not only internalizing,

[00:29:42] they also made sure that they presented ideas that went above and beyond the brief. So, they stuck to the brief, they delivered on that, but then, additionally, like, also have you considered basket, which, you know, a lot of times is very helpful because it's not humanly possible for one person in this situation

[00:30:02] me to consider, you know, all the avenues, and that's where it comes back to I'm paying for the expertise of their agency, so that's where, you know, the extra, the garnishing that they bring in, is more than welcome. 

[00:30:16] Daniel Weiner: Sure. That's a good segue into my next topic, like, I've seen a huge shift, especially since COVID, of big brands, especially, but brands of all shapes and sizes, moving more towards like one to two, or agencies that are specialized in like one-to-two services versus looking for like a full service offering and stuff like that.

[00:30:36] Do you have an opinion on that? Are you looking for more specialized agencies? I don't even know how many agencies you work with in total, but like, I find in general, it's just really hard to find like a full-service agency who does everything, you know, really, really, really well, which is kind of the shtick of what I do, even when agencies tell me like, "Oh, we're full service." I'm like, "Cool," but, like, "What do you do? What are the, the two or three things you do best?" Because surely you can't do 50 things, you know, the best. What are your opinions there? 

[00:31:02] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah, no, I'm, uh, very skeptical of this, of this, full-service agency has never worked in the history of my experience, but also everybody I speak to, it's not possible for a group of people to be excellent at everything, so if we are paying for the expertise, we have a very specific white space that we are wanting to fill with

[00:31:23] said agency. Uh, so I actually think this is a very faulty sales pitch from their end that we are full service, we do everything. No, you don't, you can't, you know, uh, then I'm gonna get into, okay, what are the kind of people you hire? Where do you hire them from? What is the experience of each of the people that you have on the team?

[00:31:42] Because if that be the case, then like I said, they would just be another generalist, but I am the generalist, and they can only be one who can supervise, you know, subject matter experts. So, please, come to tell me, what is your one specific, what sets you apart from your competitors? So, yeah, it's, the full service, uh, pitch is lost on me, to be honest, and maybe it works for some other companies.

[00:32:07] Daniel Weiner: Sure. Can you think of, two questions here, a super positive experience with agency, and what made that so great, and on the opposite side, without imputing anybody, can you think of like a really negative agency experience you've had, and what made that so negative? 

[00:32:22] Bulbul Hooda: So, positives are so many, like I said, I'm a firm believer on a true partnership, and I consider my agency partners as part of my team, you know,it's what makes us together an A team. So many positive, um, I mean, most recently we've done, we've championed two social media campaigns with the agency partner, and I'm just saying them because they're most recent, but there's so many experiences like this. 

[00:32:48] Daniel Weiner: And do you find, do you find it's positive? Because I always, I, I have kind of an unpopular opinion, my, like, you know, is that the work doesn't matter, and what I mean by that is like, work is subjective, all that sort of stuff, like, typically what I find good experiences with agencies are like, process-driven, and, you know, like, genuinely caring about your business, stuff like that.

[00:33:08] The work cannot suck, by any means, but again, like, are you, um, are most of your positive experiences? Do you tie them back to, like, the people, or like the actual physical work?

[00:33:18] Well, they're connected. So, I tie it back to people because it's the people who are listening and they're bringing intention to the table is what translates into work. Work doesn't happen without people. So, my best experiences are when, so, you know, in the wake of, um, just the economic climate at the moment we had to reconsider our

[00:33:39] Bulbul Hooda: retainer models across all agency partners. And a common misconception I had was if we do that, the quality of the work will suffer, but it did not, you know, this is what I call a true partnership when I'm thinking of them as part of my team, and I was like, "Guys, this is a situation we are in, we'll have to reconsider the retainer at this point,

[00:34:00] and this is where I can sort of pull back, but this is where I need you to step up." They came through in a way, and then after that shift of retainer is actually one of my most memorable campaigns that they delivered, so, you know, just testimony of the fact that the work, not only did it not suffer, but actually it was doubling up on the intent they brought to the table.

[00:34:23] So, ultimately the measurability of it is the work product, so I can't ignore the work, but I think the experience was with people to not only understand that, okay, this is the new situation we are in, and not compromise the quality of the work that they were delivering. I thought that was pretty incredible, and, you know, I'm their fan for that.

[00:34:45] Daniel Weiner: And what about a negative experience? Can you think of one of those?

[00:34:48] Negative experiences were also, I guess, you know, well, one could call it both process and people, sometimes very big agencies, and have had experience with those in my past life, they tend to get very hierarchical, and I don't think, you know, it just so much time is wasted in protocol, and then, you know, which designation talks to which designation on the client side, and, you know, and then, so and so is coming in,

[00:35:15] Bulbul Hooda: so is, so and so going to be in the meeting, it's irrelevant, you know, it's, uh, I guess now, if anything, we should sort of, I don't say do away with the titles, but, like, know that, you know, which are the really important people you need in the room for the work to get done, you know, how do you say, let the egos not be bigger than the projects.

[00:35:37] It's really been all my buckets of bad experiences, or just, like, taking too much time when it doesn't need to, you know, you don't need to, sometimes when, if a client is getting to you, so people are not unreasonable at a root level, if something is coming up on an emergency basis, know that, you know, more often than not, it is actually an emergency,

[00:36:00] so step up your game because now's the moment for you to shine, don't then say that it's gonna take three or four weeks’ timeline because the mo, you know, for example, on social media, let's take that everything is so contextual, it's something is trending today, so it doesn't help me if you're gonna say that it'll take seven working days to bring you back a product because in, in seven working days, the trend has changed,

[00:36:23] uh, it's no longer needed. So, that's been sort of the pool of frustrations, if you like, you know, the egos and, and the delays. Sometimes it's understandable, but sometimes it's not, uh, which is what is frustrating.

[00:36:37] Daniel Weiner: Do you think that those negative experiences can be salvaged, or is it usually like once that distrust is kind of placed, it's really hard to get back to a good spot.

[00:36:46] Bulbul Hooda: You know, my own view on this one is people's mindsets have to change, and oftentimes big companies, both on the agency side, but also equally on the manufacturing side, and this is my industry, so I can, I'm sure it's true for every industry, the mindset that we've always done it like this has to change, you know, it, because the world is not the same,

[00:37:10] the landscape is not the same, your customer is not the same, the ways you meet the customer is not the same. So, your traditional habits, and mostly it's, you know, these bad practices are, uh, hand from the top, you know, I don't think the people you recruit knew from the industry or knew from fresh out of college, have the same mindset or the shared vision, but ultimately, um, the company's ethos are designed by people on the top, and people on the top by virtue of being there have been around for a long time.

[00:37:45] They're in the mindset that we've only ever done it like this. I think that has to change. So, it can be salvaged, but what happens is from a client perspective, because I already know these pitfalls, I actually prefer to work with smaller boutique agencies, newer people, younger people because I know that they will bring, you know, what they lack in their experience, they will fill in with their intention, and with their willingness to work with us, you know, their expertise.

[00:38:17] Daniel Weiner: Sure. Nah. And then the last, uh, marketing related question, before we get into a couple fun ones, this could be either work related or just like the overall weird, uh, you alluded to an economic climate and all that, what, what keeps you up at night, you know, regarding Vella, what’s 

[00:38:31] Daniel Weiner: on your mind from a marketing standpoint?

[00:38:34] Bulbul Hooda: So, you know, economic climate aside, because we, thankfully, are pretty well oiled, we have, uh, you know, there is a lot of faith in the company, and there is money behind us. What really keeps me up at night is will our supply chain, and, you know, support, the rapid innovation that we wanna bring to the market because especially global supply chains are pretty stressed out,

[00:39:00] things are expensive, so oftentimes your shipping cost is higher than your cargo cost, actually, because fuel prices are off the charts. So, yeah, not really marketing related, but supply chain is something that I do worry about that, you know, we can have the blueprint to grow, we can have the ideas to grow, but can we support this with as rapid a supply chain,

[00:39:25] Bulbul Hooda: especially post the pandemic, you know, things are, just what took three months earlier now takes at least nine to ten months, from a global supply chain perspective.

[00:39:35] Daniel Weiner: It's crazy. Well, I hope you get some sleep, uh, soon regarding the supply chain. Uh, what was your very first job?

[00:39:40] Bulbul Hooda: My very first job, actually, isn't it funny, was at an advertising agency, so. 

[00:39:47] Daniel Weiner: There you go, you were, you were holding out on me this whole time.

[00:39:50] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah, so this was back in college, and like I said, I was born and raised in India. So, you know, summer jobs and this concept was not very common, back in the day. And I also went to college many, many moons ago, but in my, and I, I was an economics major in school,

[00:40:06] so, I don't know why I was very intrigued, so I was always intrigued, I didn't know, I used, I wanna be a marketer, I didn't know any of this, but I was obsessed with watching ads on television at that time, I was less interested in the content, but more interested in the ads that fill in the time. And so, I thought this is where I see a career for me, and actually two summers,

[00:40:28] uh, we had long summer breaks back in school, I went to a very big agency, I don't know if I'm supposed to name them or not, but they're office-based in India, uh, and I worked there each summer at a very low stipend, but those were the best memories I have, and so a lot of the times when I say that I know what goes in the minds of the agency it's probably also my conditioning from a very young age, I've seen it from that side, as well, uh, so I understand it. 

[00:40:56] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, it's definitely interesting when I talk to folks who have both, both agency and brand experience, usually have like a wildly different perspective than somebody who's worked just on the brand side. 

[00:41:04] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah.

[00:41:05] Daniel Weiner: Um, I couldn't imagine you ever ended up on death row, but if you did, what would your final meal be?

[00:41:11] Bulbul Hooda: My final meal. Gosh, I love all food.

[00:41:14] Daniel Weiner: I need to start asking people what they would end up on death row for before, uh, doing that, so, hopefully, that's not the case.

[00:41:21] Bulbul Hooda: It's probably going to be pancakes with a lot of syrup. 

[00:41:26] Daniel Weiner: Pancakes. Interesting. Okay. 

[00:41:29] Bulbul Hooda: Yeah.

[00:41:31] Daniel Weiner: Fair, fair enough, not, nothing in the pancakes, just regular pancakes?

[00:41:32] Bulbul Hooda: I mean, you know, Nutella, some chocolate chip, some berries, like. 

[00:41:37] Daniel Weiner: I was gonna say, I'm, I'm a blueberry kind of guy, if I'm going pancakes.

[00:41:40] Bulbul Hooda: I’m a, I'm a breakfast sort of a person, breakfast at all meals, so, yeah, it would be pancakes dinner.

[00:41:47] Daniel Weiner: Okay, fair enough. And then, my final question for you, who's someone who inspires you?

[00:41:51] Bulbul Hooda: Someone who inspires me. So, not to sound philosophical, but I think inspirations always change as you evolve and grow in time. Um, so I've had different inspirations at different points in my life, at this moment, I think I'm very inspired by our four founders at Vella, you know, because they are my immediate circle of influence at the moment, and I'm blown away every day with the, the expertise they bring to the table, each one with their own characteristics, and, you know, they each have what I don't.

[00:42:28] So, we come from very varied fields, and to then see that how everything comes together and works in this beautiful brand that is out in the market, uh, inspires me every.

[00:42:40] Daniel Weiner: That's awesome. Yeah, that's the best team, uh, situation you can find, so that sounds wonderful. Bulbul, this was awesome. I appreciate you spending some time with me today. I presume the best spot. I'm gonna not give your LinkedIn out, and I'm gonna tell people not send you messages on LinkedIn since those end up in trash, but, uh, I believe the URL is vellabio.com, right?

[00:43:00] Bulbul Hooda: That's correct. 

[00:43:01] Daniel Weiner: V-e-l-l-a-b-i-o.com for more information on what’s going on over there, and, yeah, no, I really appreciate you joining us. This was awesome.

[00:43:09] Bulbul Hooda: Thank you, Daniel, for having me, and good luck. You're doing a great service to us marketers, so keep up the good work.

[00:43:15] Daniel Weiner: Thank you. I appreciate that. I will talk to you soon.

[00:43:18] Bulbul Hooda: Thank you, Daniel.