[00:00:00] Alan Magee: Anyone can take orders and execute, but what I want is agency that's gonna bring new ideas to the table. They're gonna be strategically looking at our whole business, asking, "How is the business doing?

[00:00:10] Where are there opportunities?" They're looking at the competition and tracking the category and bringing ideas, like, they're truly an extension of my team, and usually, it's, like, one way or the other, either they are, or they aren't, quite frankly. 

[00:01:00] Daniel Weiner: Hello, and welcome to episode four of the YouShouldTalkTo podcast. I am Daniel Weiner, and this podcast is still brought to you by myself as well as YouShouldTalkTo, until a sponsor decides to take on that burden. YouShouldTalkTo pairs brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies and, or freelancers for pretty much any marketing or tech need.

[00:01:19] Daniel Weiner: Why? Because finding great agencies is a pain in ass. Super excited today to be joined by a friend as well as a member of my board of advisors, Alan Magee, VP of Marketing at Empire Portfolio Group, one of the largest Orangetheory Fitness franchise owners in the country. Thank you so much for joining us today, Alan. Are you super excited to be here?

[00:01:37] I've only been bothering you for several weeks now.

[00:01:40] Alan Magee: I'm pumped to be here, nothing I'd rather do on a Monday morning than to be on a podcast with you, so.

[00:01:46] Daniel Weiner: That's what I like to hear. Uh, tell us a little bit about yourself. You've done a lot in the course of your career after Clemson, of course, which we have that connection. You've done food, you've done high-end aesthetics, you're now in the fitness arena. How, how did you get here? Fill us in. 

[00:02:00] Alan Magee: Yeah. It's, it, it's been an interesting journey. I'd say it's been very much a, a zigzag. So, a lot of people ask around kind of, "How did you get into marketing?" And I'd say, "I got into marketing, like, pretty early in my career, even starting way back when I was in high school, I knew it was like, 'I wanna do something in business.'"

[00:02:17] Like, both my parents were teachers or in the service industry, and I knew I wanted to do business. And actually, I started in my senior year of high school, I did a business co-op program where I worked at a parts factory for Ingersoll Rand. And I went in for my mornings, and I would go in, and I'd put my hard hat on, walk through the floor, go up, and I would help price parts and file and do all this kind of stuff,

[00:02:41] and I was like, "This is, like, this is pretty cool." And so, then ended up going to school at Clemson for marketing, did a number of different things in, really, the hospitality space while I was there. And knew I still wanted to continue in marketing, I didn't wanna get a job coming outta school. I wasn't ready yet and the, and the economy was not great.

[00:03:00] So, went and did a master's in advertising at the University of Texas, had a real interest in advertising. While I was out there, did internships, got into the agency world, really thought I was gonna, like, go be in the agency world, start there, build my own agency at some point and, like, that was gonna be my career.

[00:03:16]  So, first job that I looked for was I looked in Atlanta. It was a real growing space at the time, city, and landed a job at Grey Worldwide. We had a satellite office down here, and we worked on the BellSouth account back in the day before AT&T acquired them. So, really. 

[00:03:33] Daniel Weiner: Blast, 

[00:03:34] Daniel Weiner: a blast from the past. 

[00:03:35] Alan Magee: I, I know, people, people in the South are like, "Oh, BellSouth," they, they remember that and, uh, got to work on some cool stuff. I was selling people dial-up and DSL internet. I was getting them to bundle their home phones when home phones were a thing, what their service is. But got to learn the advertising space, uh, by work on, on a really a really big brand with big budgets, so it was, like, TV and radio production, how to 

[00:04:00] manage client relationships, all of that kind of stuff. And eventually, AT&T acquired BellSouth, and then it was, "All right. We're, you know, we're shifting agencies, so time to go find something new." And made the jump over to the brand side and honestly, like, never left.

[00:04:15] So, had an opportunity to jump over to Arby's, which never really thought I was gonna get into fast food, but I also worked in fast food in, in high school, so I kind of had a little affinity for it. And started on the brand marketing team there, where I was working on really a lot of, a lot of insights work of, "What's the next product that we need to develop?" And developing that through research with consumers, getting it tested with our chefs in market, "How do we market it?

[00:04:41] How do we write the briefs?" All of that kind of stuff, which was really, back then, a really long-life cycle of, like, it might take us 12 months to get a product in the market. So, learning all of that, really, hands-on for anything as small as, like, a new milkshake flavor or a different roast beef sandwich with a sauce on it.

[00:05:00] And going through real, like, getting into the strategic side of marketing along with doing some cool stuff, like making kids meals, toys, then, you know, how do you make a toy for 13 cents and things like that, so some fun kind of projects. 

[00:05:12] Daniel Weiner: What's your favorite Arby's food on menu item?

[00:05:14] Alan Magee: Oh gosh. Uh, you know, it's honestly, I love a Beef'n Cheddar, I'm not gonna lie, but the one that I got to work on back in the day, a chocolate croissant, which sounds super simple, but it was an incredible product, just, you know, a croissant filled with chocolate and top of chocolate, something super easy and, uh. 

[00:05:32] Daniel Weiner: Still on the menu? 

[00:05:33] Alan Magee: I, no, it comes back every now and then. It's, it's funny to see, sometimes when you work with these restaurant brands, you work on something, then you'll see like the product you worked on come back, like, 10 years later, so it's still kind of fun to see some stuff pop back up from RVs that I worked on way, way back in the day.

[00:05:49] So, from there, I moved over in the hospitality side of stuff and went over to IHG in InterContinental Hotels Group. Worked, spent a number of years there in a couple different roles, big, big organizations, so, I started to kind of moving to bigger and bigger organizations. And I did marketing across all the different brands, really a lot of, of B2B,

[00:06:13] so my goal was how do I drive business travelers into our hotel Sundays through Wednesday night. So, very specific niche, right? Each brand had different types of business travelers. We had different budgets. We had different campaigns. Did a lot of cool stuff with sports partnerships, like BMW Motorsports, which is a global partnership, did a lot with Golf, with the PGA tour, helped run a golf tournament, on the tour for a couple years, worked in things like baseball, all sorts of different things

[00:06:42] and marketing from a B2B side, working with sales teams. And then started doing the more brand management, like hotel design and brand standards, and how do we turn performance around for hotels and brands that are lagging in performance? So, we're a lot more deeper into, like, on the strategy side of stuff

[00:07:00] Alan Magee: and then how's that translated into actionable marketing. 

[00:07:04] Daniel Weiner: Sure. 

[00:07:04] I'm curious, before you move on to the rest, when you went to Clemson, what did you major in? 

[00:07:08] Alan Magee: I, I decided that pretty early on, and back then, it was a very general marketing degree. Like, I remember taking, like, a promotions class, an advertising class, like,

[00:07:22] a B2B class. It was like, just, like, just the, the cusp of, of what marketing was. 

[00:07:27] Daniel Weiner: Do you think college prepared you at all? I, I asked because I can vividly remember being in my freshman orientation for Clemson and them saying, I guess either the dean or president or whoever was speaking to us said like, "Oh, if you don't know what you want to do, be a communications major 'cause you can do anything."

[00:07:44] Alan Magee: So, I was a communications major. I think I had, like, a marketing emphasis in some capacity. It was still brand new. Graduated in 2008, recession, and every interview I had, everybody asked, "Oh, you're a communications major. What can you do?" And I was like, "I have no clue. Please ask the people at Clemson 'cause they told me I can do literally anything."

[00:08:02] Daniel Weiner: So, I was curious if you think your, uh, 

[00:08:03] your degree prepared you for what your, what you've done over your career at all?

[00:08:06] Alan Magee: I think so. I think marketing, or at, at Clemson, marketing gave me a good, like, baseline. It helped me honestly, like, weed out what I kind of had interested in marketing and what I didn't, and that's where I wanted to

[00:08:18] go more to advertising, like, the promotions, the advertising stuff, like, all of that helps me say, like, "This is the territory I want to go" versus "I didn't, I knew I did not want to be in sales," coming outta school. Like, and it was kinda, you went one way or the other of sales or non-sale. So, I, I think that helped while I was there. And then I did a lot of, like, on-campus work too.

[00:08:38] So, working with, it was back in the day called Tiger Paw Production, so we used to put on all the concerts and all of that kind of stuff, and I think that's what also got my itch-scratch for marketing. 'Cause I was doing something where it's hands-on, like putting on these concerts on campus and when the artists came in town and how all that kind of worked,

[00:08:55] so it was kind of a combination of the experience along with the, you know, the classwork. 

[00:09:01] Daniel Weiner: Gotcha. Talk us through, um, post-IHG. Was the next stop Church's? 

[00:09:07] Alan Magee: No. So, I, I moved back to food, though, you're right, over to focus brands and leading the Moe's marketing team. So, Moe's Southwest Grill, at the time, was going through a little bit of a turnaround,

[00:09:18] and that's what I'd worked on a lot at IHG, were turnaround brands. And came in and looked at everything from what's the product that we have in restaurant, what's the brand experience, what are we doing from a marketing perspective, social. It was a real transformative time at Moe's, where the brand was moving from really, like, a teenage year to being an adult,

[00:09:41] so we really had to reassess everything that we were doing, help build a kind of restaurant of the future. Moe's was a great time, super fun brand, I mean, you can do anything fun when you just, you know, put queso on it, like, super quirky. So, I had a great time there at Focus and at Moe's but then had the opportunity to jump over to Church's.

[00:10:00] I'd done a lot of digital work at Moe'S, like rolling out a map, an app and loyalty and moving the brand into heavy, heavy digital media. And Church's, uh, was an opportunity where they said, "We need someone to come in and build out a digital department, a tech stack. Nothing exists, you're building from the ground up right now."

[00:10:19] And so, you don't find too many brands you can come in, and they're like, "Tell us what to do and how to do it." And went in there, built out a team, built out a three-year digital that included all technology, as part of it activation, agencies and Church's was on our turnaround too, where the brand was on the cusp of starting to move, to be more positive in sales.

[00:10:42] In the three years I was there, we had three years of positive, straight-comp sales, which was the best the brand did in about 15 years, which all certainly led to an acquisition at the end of gosh, 21. So, post-acquisition said, "I wanna do a little something different." There was a digital role at a brand called OVME, which is a, a growing med spa brand in the aesthetic space.

[00:11:06] So, went in there, did a lot of development of what we were doing from a marketing perspective, marketing strategy, as that brand was starting to scale up from being a startup. 

[00:11:15] Daniel Weiner: Was it a big 

[00:11:16] kind of marketing shock, I would say, going from, you know, big, well-known brand to lesser-known smaller brand, or you think it was, uh, a relatively easy transition?

[00:11:25] Alan Magee: No, it is. It's a yes and no. For some things where you might think a big brand, like a Church's has all this brand awareness, but it really didn't. I mean, a lot of what we, so I was like, Church's had like a 2 or 3% unaided brand awareness. So, for a lot of these big brands, our native brand awareness is still an issue,

[00:11:45] Alan Magee: so, honestly, it was a very similar situation going from 1000 restaurants to 12 studios. Like, it was the same problems and the same similar marketing tactics just really tweaked a different way that, that we did for, uh, so I'd say OVME was much more of a local marketing playbook versus Church's was a much bigger national,

[00:12:06] "How do we scale it more from a footprint perspective?" 

[00:12:10] Daniel Weiner: Gotcha. No, that makes sense.

[00:12:12] Alan Magee: And then just more recently moved over a little over three months ago to Empire Portfolio Group to build out the marketing department, for Empire and build out a marketing roadmap and, and drive our business there.

[00:12:25] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. Tell, tell us more about Empire, since, uh, I, I presume most people listening have heard of Orangetheory Fitness, less so Empire Portfolio Group. What's your, you know, main responsibility there? How many franchises, all that sort of stuff? 

[00:12:37] Alan Magee: Yeah. So, at Empire, we're one of the fastest-growing Orangetheory Fitness franchise group.

[00:12:42] So, we've got territory in 10 states on the East Coast, everywhere from Maine to South Carolina, with a total of 146 studios in our regions. We own just under 60, with a lot more opening up soon, so it's been a fast-growing, uh, group. And my department, as I say, all things marketing, all things communication for our studio.

[00:13:05] So, building out marketing infrastructure, partnerships, strategy, whether it comes from media creative promotions, what we're doing around each studio locally in the community, it's a lot of work directly with our studios, whether it's Portland, Maine, whether it's South End in Charlotte or Georgetown in DC or, you know, Upper West Side in Manhattan, right?

[00:13:28] The studios are all have different, I say, geographic and demographic ecosystem, so it's a similar playbook, but it's about 70% the same playbook, but what's the 30% real twist for individual studios in, in marketing. So, I'm here building out a team, building out an approach for us to drive more business and to continue to be a super high-performing Orangetheory, uh, Fitness franchise group.

[00:13:55] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I was gonna ask, do you think it's, you know, more or less challenging or kind of just a different challenge of marketing for, like, a big brand that everybody's heard of versus, you know, individual franchisees and trying to help, you know, drive in-store traffic and, you know, digital and all that sort of stuff, you know, like you said, 70% the same playbook, but that 30 other percent, I presume is pretty nuanced to different locations.

What's the biggest challenge there, know? I imagine from limited experience with franchise groups, franchisee buy-in, and all that sort of stuff, and just the astronomical amount of communication it takes to keep everybody on the same page. 

[00:14:29] Alan Magee: Yeah. It's definitely a different challenge, and this is the first time sitting on the franchisee seat of the business.

[00:14:35] So, I'm, you know, I'm typically, been looked at it from the other side as the franchisor. I think that gives me an advantage of understanding of what's coming from the franchisor and then what do we need to do bring down to help fill the gap as the franchisee and where there's opportunities?

[00:14:51]  You know, I, I was having these similar conversations with our franchisees at other brands of, "These are the things that you should be doing to drive your business at a local level that complement what we're doing at the national level." And so, that's really the mindset coming into it. But every business is a little bit different and, and fitness is a very unique business too,

[00:15:10] especially the boutique fitness area where there's a lot of competition, there's a lot of changing. There's a lot of change in behavior of just what's happened with people, especially coming outta COVID, of what they're doing from a fitness perspective. So, it's fun, it's a good challenge,

[00:15:25] Alan Magee: it's continuing to evolve, but I'd say my career has very much been a zigzag. If you look at it, you see, like, every time I move around, it's a zigzag back and forth. And that's very purposeful because every time I make a zig or a zag, I wanna add a couple more tools, I wanna have a different experience, whether it's the size of the brand, the type of the brand, the category.

[00:15:46] And then, as I move, I'm able to take all those different tools and learnings to figure out what can I plug and play and apply to that next opportunity. So, that's, I'd say, like, the biggest takeaway when I didn't realize I was doing that until about, I don't know, five or six years ago, and now I look at it and go, "Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

[00:16:04] What's the next zig that I wanna do?

[00:16:07] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, it's funny, while, while you're doing it, in your career, you oftentimes, myself at least, uh, forget what you've done, and then you look back, like, in a couple years, you're like, "Oh, like, that makes sense now of what I'm doing or where you got here." Every, I, I firmly believe everybody ends up where they're supposed to, for the most part.

[00:16:23] I know we worked together a little in the past, but prior to that, you know, when you need an agency, where are you going? Who are you asking, you know, using Google, are you asking colleagues? What's your kind of process there when need an agency, vendor, freelancer, anything outside of a full-time hire?

[00:16:38] Alan Magee: I mean, honestly, the 80% of the time, it's just, like, who I knew or someone that was a reco. I mean, sometimes if it was something very specific, I might do some Googling and look at, like, agency rankings or specialization, or also look at somebody else that's in the category that I think, that's not, maybe not a competitive, or I'm like, "They're doing this really well.

[00:16:59] Who are they using?" but predominantly, it's maybe someone that I worked with at a past agency that went on to a new one, and I had a lot of confidence in them as an account person or a creative, or someone that I, I met at a networking event and, you know, just stayed in touch with as part of it.

[00:17:15] So, I honestly, like, I'm one of the, I feel like of, in the minority, where I take a lot of sales calls, especially from agency partners and also technology partners because I kind of wanna know what's your differentiator, what are you offering, who are you working with and what are you doing there.

[00:17:30] It's really tough to find out that information, 'cause we, as marketers, like, we get in our marketing bubble and, like, we're in there doing the day-to-day, we're working with our team, our partners, all of this and sometimes you kind of shield out everything from the outside, but to find out who those really great partners are, you've gotta take those calls,

[00:17:47] you've gotta do some networking, you've gotta just, you know, kind of keep a pulse on what is happening out there, but it's, it's tough, like, it just takes time.

[00:17:54] Daniel Weiner: You're gonna get hit up by a thousand new vendors after this podcast now that you said you're open to those, uh, those calls. In general, to that end, like, what are you looking for if you had to, you know, put it into kind of like a blanket statement? What are you looking for from an agency or vendor? Is there something, in particular, that would make, say, if somebody's listening to this and they do decide to reach out, what would make them stand out,

[00:18:16] you know, amidst the madness of a hundred other outreaches? 

[00:18:20] Alan Magee: I'd say, and this not may sound very, very cliche, right, but I truly look at our agencies as partners and listen,

[00:18:28] Alan Magee: like, I can hire anybody to execute and me go, "Go buy this media, go do this, go do that." Right? Take, anyone can take orders and execute. But what I want is agency that's gonna bring new ideas to the table. They're gonna be strategically looking at our whole business, asking, "How is the business doing?

[00:18:44] Where are there opportunities?" They're looking at the competition and tracking the category and bringing ideas, like, they're truly an extension of my team, and usually, it's, like, one way or the other. Either they are, or they aren't, quite frankly. Also, a group that is, I'd say, has the same mindset, have fun, and quite frankly, like, standing out is hard.

[00:19:06] It's like, it's a tension to that detail as part of it, but having a point of view, like, if something's happening in the industry or something is happening in our business, like, give me what's your point of view on it. Don't just say, "This is happening," and leave it out there or ask me for the answers for it,

[00:19:21] like, let's go back and forth on it. I'm looking for you to be a strategic partner. One good example of this, and this will be one of, one of my tips for agencies out here is typically, if I'm bidding out business, any sort of RFP or any sort of project, I'll do a, like a Q&A session with every agency, right?

[00:19:40] It's like, I wanna get a feel for you guys. I wanna, I'll offer up my time 30 minutes or an hour of usually 30 minutes of, of a Q&A, right? Ask me questions about the business. Let's go into the project, whatever that is. Usually, at the end of this, I'll say, "This is great. Listen, if you want more time with me, then we can set up time next week."

[00:20:00] Like, "I'm willing to give you more time," if it's been a, a good conversation. I'll offer that up to say, we're talking to five agencies, all five. Typically, one agency is like, "Yes, can we book that now?" And they'll book that, they'll dive in, do more, have more Q&A, dive more into the business, and we'll spend more time together, get to know each other.

[00:20:21] It shows me they're getting the process, 9 times outta 10 that one agency is the one that I'm choosing, quite frankly. Because, like, I know they want it. They're buying their time in. They're starting to build that relationship, and they're doing their homework. Like, they're focused on this.

[00:20:34] It's not just the, "How much?" The, "What's the deliverables?" Like, all of that stuff. Like, "I'm giving you the opportunity, I'm handing it to you, so take it," and that's a little test that I, I give to all, all our partners and usually the, the one that does that is the one that we land with.

[00:20:48] Daniel Weiner: It's so shocking to hear that some agencies are not taking advantage of that because when I was 

[00:20:54] at an agency, like I was a, usually begging for time presale with clients to, like, understand more, but if a brand offered time, you know, I was a thousand percent jumping on that, so it's interesting to hear that. From the other side, just to jump around a little, like, you had mentioned, and I, I don't even remember who the agencies were, but, uh, don't name them since we're not here to shame any agencies, you know, we talked when you moved from, I believe, Church's to OVME, you know, you reached out to some of those agencies that you had worked with in the past and stuff like that and some, like, either jumped straight to like, "Hey, what's your budget?" Two, wouldn't take the call because you weren't a big enough brand.

[00:21:33] You know, I think your spend was, like, a million dollars, or, you know, some astronomically large sum for many agencies or just a big sum of money. Can you talk through that 'cause I don't know if I've ever been more, more shocked to hear that just from a short-sighted, you know, sales perspective of, you're gonna jump around 20 other times in your career,

[00:21:50] how is everyone not bending over backwards from an agency perspective to keep that relationship or help you, even if it's not with their agency?

[00:21:58] Alan Magee: Yeah. It's, I'm surprised at it even more and more with agencies and, and some, I guess, are much more, they only want a certain size of business based on what they're doing today

[00:22:09] and some of them, you know, just told me that upfront and I'm like, "That's fine," you know, "I, I get it." Tell me that upfront. Others kind of went through the process and, and then said, "It's gonna cost, you know, three or four X of, of what your budget is." Like, I'm fine with that. But yeah, I mean, I guess, from my perspective, if you think there's gonna be growth in the business, especially a brand that's going to be growing over time,

[00:22:31] Alan Magee: then, I don't know, I always feel like, I don't know why agencies would turn down a business opportunity unless it's coming down that you just don't have the resources to, to staff it the right way. But, yeah, it seems like it's a little more of the case today with agencies being much more picky with their business,

[00:22:47] whereas I just, I think the, the more business you've got, you never know where it's gonna grow, or I have definitely hired, in my career, multiple times agencies I brought with them from one job to the next. And so, a lot of times just get in the door, and you never know, like, you could get that, that big whale in two years because somebody's moved on the next big role.

[00:23:08] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. And I think it's good for agencies to be picky with the business. I think it's more, if I understood correctly from that portion of that process is there were plenty of agencies that were not even open to exploration, like. 

[00:23:20] Alan Magee: Yeah. 

[00:23:20] Daniel Weiner: And I think I asked her, 

[00:23:21] I was like, "Were you a terrible client? Like, did you wrong

[00:23:24] these people in some capacity? Like, what do you mean they won't take the call?" Like, "Yeah, our budget's not big enough." I'm like, "I don't understand. Like, what do you mean? They won't waste 30 

[00:23:32] minutes to explore?" But now, I think it's good when agencies are picky. One of the things I look for from agencies that I work with is being open to exploration, however, which is, you know? If we agree, like, this is potentially something that can grow or like, you know, take the 30-minute intro call, see where it goes, and then be 

[00:23:49] picky. But, um, especially since COVID, I was gonna say I've seen a bigger shift from bigger brands moving towards smaller independent agencies that specialize and are kind of picky towards, you know, one to two services versus agencies of record and stuff like that. What do you think of that? Have you seen that shift or felt that?

[00:24:09]  You know, this shift is here, and I don't think we're ever going back to it.

[00:24:13] Alan Magee: So, here's why. In marketing advertising about 10 to 15 years ago, it was much more general. I think early on digital, much more traditional, but the marketers were much more generalists that were sitting in those marketing seats, right? It was more creative-driven, it was more project-driven, things like that.

[00:24:32] Well, market has gotten way more complex nowadays. Whether we're talking about search, whether we're talking about social, why we're talking about new media, why we're talking about, you know, web three, whether we're talking about development, all of this stuff, right? It's gotten way more complex, and you have more.

[00:24:47] Daniel Weiner: This, this is going on TikTok, right? After this, Alan, trust me. I know there's too much stuff out there. 

[00:24:52] Alan Magee: I, it is. There's, there's so many channels. I mean, the channels have went up, you know, 15 X in the last five years, right? It gets more and more complicated. And so, brands are bringing in more subject-matter experts into the business, right? And it's much more of a hybrid model.

[00:25:06] It's not as much of generalist and generalist, it's much more hybrid, both ways. And so, brands are looking for more specific partners to fill the gaps on those things and to be the experts as part of it. Big brands are always gonna need the generalist agencies, right? The ones that say they can do everything really well, but most brands that are small or mid-size, which is the predominant number of brands out there today,

[00:25:29] right, they might have a couple partners that are specialists in the business. And the other thing I'll just, I'll add on to this, my belief is most agencies are really good at a couple things, like, their sweet spot is two to three different things. Yes, they can do eight,

[00:25:45] but what you want is you are an agency that can do those two to three things that you need really, really well. Right? And then maybe you'll take one or two other parts of the business that they can do okay. But when you've got a, a lot of times, the bigger, more general shops just do kind of everything okay

[00:26:01]  and that really just, move your business, and as a smaller or mid-size brand, you wanna be paying for what is gonna be able to move the needle in your business. And so, I think all of that is what's kind of set this in motion, and I just don't see it going back because of the kind of infrastructure of what marketing is today. 

[00:26:20] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I completely agree what I saw, like, from two sides. I see a lot of the most successful agencies that I work with are super stringent on sticking to their one to two services, not taking on anything else, and happily turning down things that are outside of that. Uh, what I think happens oftentimes,

[00:26:37] at least a little bit of my old agency that got us into trouble is if you do one to two things really well, eventually brands want to give you more money to do the three, four, and five things, and you can only, you can, or it's very difficult. You can only say "No" to money for so long, you know? And eventually, you're like, "All right, if you're like begging to give it to us," uh, you know? And I don't know if that's good or bad, 'cause if you end up sucking at those things, it tarnishes the relationship on the front end.

[00:27:04] I'm curious, though, you talked a little bit earlier about, you know, being cliche, but true I'm with you, it is cliche to say you want a true partner, although, in my opinion, that's the best way to have, like, a super long-standing agency-client relationship. Can you think of, like, an especially great agency experience you've had and, you know, talk us through that,

[00:27:22] Daniel Weiner: like, what made it so great?

[00:27:24] Alan Magee: Yeah. I've had some really, really good ones. These are agencies that I've hired over multiple times between different brands. And I'd say it mainly comes down to relationship top to bottom. So, I had a great relationship with whether it's account lead or agency president, whoever that was, the managers on my team had great relationships with, you know, the account execs, even out of the coordinators had great relationships with like the, the junior folks on there, same with the creative signs.

[00:27:52] So, it's really got a let's say good relationships across the board of being in that day-to-day working, and then also I say that the biggest thing that sticks out is, is, it's really one word, that's proactive, right? If I have to wait to tell you to do something, then, like, it's too late. Like, I want you being able to come to the table, be proactive, be asking those questions, be asking the why, and, you know, bringing value our business.

[00:28:22] Right? If I tease something out there, you should wanna jump on that and say, "Hey, how can we help you with this? Here's what we can do." I can always say, "No, no, you don't, I don't need your help with it, but I'm always looking for proactiveness," like, the, just run the daily business kind of stuff, like, that

[00:28:36] just doesn't move the needle for me. And then. 

[00:28:39] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, it's interesting, I was 

[00:28:40] gonna say, but I, I might be interrupting what you're about to say, but I wanted to point it out now. It's interesting to me that you didn't say one thing about work or capabilities or anything involving, like, the tangible work product, which I firmly believe is the truth for kind of everybody, whether they say it or not. Like, I firm, I take the stance that you, you don't get to do the good work, even if you're the best in the world its something which many agencies, uh, say that they are, you know? If the relationship isn't strong presale and at the front-end, like, those first three months of the honeymoon phase are, uh, I think the most crucial parts because you have all this excitement presale, you sign a contract,

[00:29:19] the last thing you want is to feel, uh, different, like, right away once there's an exchange of money. So, I'm curious to hear that unless that's where you were going. Do you think the, like, what are your opinions on the work? I take the opinion it, it doesn't matter in the sense that so many agencies do good work, but, like, are they making your life easier?

[00:29:37] Uh, like you said, are they being proactive? You have to pull it out of them, all that sort of stuff. 

[00:29:42] Alan Magee: I, I, typically, I find the ones that have, that we have really good relationships together, they're doing great work too. The ones that I've gotta pull out of, they're the ones that we're looking at and going, "They're not delivering on the KPIs," or,

[00:29:56]  "We don't like this work. We're having to go back multiple, multiple times on rounds of changes on things." So, I feel like the work comes with the partnership as part of it, too, and those agencies that we have good relationships with, they listen too, so they start to understand what the expectation is

[00:30:14] Alan Magee: and then also, you know, what is our feedback. So, we're not giving the same feedback every single time because they're actually listening to us. So, I, I kind of think, actually, they go pretty hand in hand. I don't think I've ever had a relationship, a part, an agency relationship that has been really strong,

[00:30:31] that's had poor-quality work. I've had relationships where it's been good work and poor relationship, but typically that good work then starts to fall down, and it ends up being poor relationship, poor work, quite frankly. Like, I, I, I've never seen it continue to, to maintain up there over time. 

[00:30:49] Daniel Weiner: How do you think you get the most out of your agency partnerships? Um, it sounds like you were somewhere in between. Do you want a more collaborative, you know, engagement? Do you want to be told what you need or, you know, what you should be trying somewhere in between? Talk us through that. 

[00:31:05] Alan Magee: I'd say it's a combo for me, definitely, like, the collaboration on, on certain things.

[00:31:10] 'Cause I, I'm, I'm a pretty hands-on marketer, so I like that approach, but I do look for their point of view. Like, I want their POV. If, if I'm saying, "We should do this. We should build this website with this platform," and if the agency has a different point of view, then, "Listen, like, tell me why and tell me why your point of view is better

[00:31:29] Alan Magee: or tell me why this social strategy we should be doing it this way and not, and not the other way." I'm very open to that, and a lot of times, like, "Hey, I'll listen to you. All right. Let's, let's test it out. Let's try it." Like, very open to trying stuff as part of that, but you, you've gotta give me the, gotta gimme the "Why" on it and not really,

[00:31:46] and I say not really talking down to the client, too. Like, that's what some agencies have to work with, is like, is not talking down, especially when you're, when you're talking to, not so much people at a leadership level, but we were talking to marketing managers and coordinators and other folks that are on that team 'cause that is the fastest way to really sour

[00:32:05] that relationship, is to make the marketers on the brand side feel like that the agency thinks they're stupid. And agencies, that, that is a problem that, that happens.

[00:32:14] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I totally agree as, uh, being somebody on that side of the agency, I mean, I'm guilty of that. You get an email from a brand and your, your first reaction is defensive and kind of combative of, like, are you being questioned, and I think it comes with probably age and experience of realizing, "No, like, you're there for a number of reasons, but one is also to make them look on their side, to their superiors and stuff like that and really empowering them with knowledge

[00:32:39] and if you do that," that's why I think so long term about all this stuff, all of those people will eventually be in your role, presumably, as they move along in their career and 

[00:32:47] they're keep you, uh, in their Rolodex, is one of the, the people they reach out to first when they get those new jobs and stuff like that.

[00:32:55] On the, on the 

[00:32:56] Daniel Weiner: other side of that, can you think of any, like, super-negative agency experiences you've had in the past? Uh, I see you, I see you smiling. So, I, I, I assume there's some war stories. If you need to pour a drink, feel free, but I'm curious what, what made those, uh, such, I shouldn't say bad, I'll, I'll use negative for semantics,

[00:33:15] what made those, those such negative experiences?

[00:33:17] Alan Magee: I 

[00:33:18] think the, the agency relationships that have been challenged with the most, what I'll call it is challenging.

[00:33:22] Daniel Weiner: That's a better way. That's a, that's a very, that's a diplomatic way. Yeah. More, more, more challenging.

[00:33:26] Alan Magee: More challenging. A lot of it comes down, quite frankly, to, like, complacency, whereas, like, the agency's been in place, I've come into a role or, or they've been on the business, and they're just continuing to do things the same way over and over again as part of it.

[00:33:45] So, like, that's one of the, the biggest challenges right there, is just getting them to, to change their mindset. And it's, especially when, when you have a new marketing leader come in, yeah, there's always gonna be like, "We don't wanna do things exactly the same way we did them before."

[00:33:58] So, you gotta kind of like, you gotta kind of roll with that a little bit. Um,and some agencies, you know, they just, they don't like change, right? And so, they wanna have that set it and forget it, and that's, that definitely is challenging and makes you question that relationship. I say the other thing is quite frankly, it's just, like, execution of work.

[00:34:15] Like, if I'm seeing that execution of work, there's errors, there's gaps, this isn't delivered on brief, like, all that kind of stuff, like, those are also the, the most challenging 

[00:34:26] of like, "Can I trust this agency to actually execute, or am I having to go behind them and, like, and double-check that everything's right?"

[00:34:34] That's what makes you start to question agencies? So, those are the, the two biggest ones, but, like, I'll give a, a good example of just even from a, from the relationship side too. And so, I ran a pitch years ago at, at a role and the Incumbent had an opportunity to be a part of it

[00:34:53] and, and they were, they were very good partner, right? But it was just time for us to, to reassess the business. We brought in a number of, of different agencies as part of it. And we get into the, I'd say it was the account lead on there had definitely rubbed a lot of people on the brand the wrong way, did not. 

[00:35:11] Daniel Weiner: The Incumbent agency or the other ones? 

[00:35:14] Alan Magee: From the Incumbent.

[00:35:15] So, that, that was part of the the challenge of, I'd say, reputation and relationships were not great at the top. And so, we ran this, and during the actual pitch, one, their presentation had, like, numbers of, of errors in it from the Incumbent, and they showed they didn't really understand the business,

[00:35:36] so the business was like, it's like, "You've been working on this, but you actually don't understand our business." And then it was really the foresight of person that was the, the lead that had some challenging relationships led it. And, you know, it was like all three of those, it's, like, we gave the opportunity

[00:35:53] I really wanted to maintain with them, but I wanted to see some change in there, but it's like, it kind of missed on, like, three boxes right there of it 

[00:36:01] Daniel Weiner: Sure.

[00:36:02] Alan Magee: of, of executing to, like, to lose the business. And so, you know, someone came up to me afterwards and said, "You know, the best thing they could have done is had someone else lead that pitch."

[00:36:12] And like that probably would've won them the business. And so, it's just those things, but the execution, the relationship and the true partnership side of it, of, like, knowing the business, like, they missed on each of those boxes. And so, it went elsewhere.

[00:36:25] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, it's interesting to hear about the complacency side, coming from agency and now in the role that I'm in now, uh, I feel for agencies on the complacent side 'cause I can remember at my own, like, when things are going well, I think you're not necessarily incentivized, but you think you should, maybe complacent

[00:36:46] isn't the right word, you, you should maintain what you are doing because things are in, like, a positive state. And, you know, it's a fine line. Like, some people I've been in rooms where, like, I present ideas, and essentially, they're like, "Danny, you shut the fuck up." Uh, and I've been in rooms where I give ideas, and they're essentially like, "Oh, like, we'd like to explore those," you know? Like, a lot of what I talk about with folks on this podcast, as well as brands, kind of like to wrap it into what I do at YouShouldTalkTo is like, you have to understand who you're talking to more than anything, more than the

[00:37:16] brand, in my opinion, more than the business, more than what they're selling, the, the people in the room 'cause everybody's approaching it from such a different perspective and knowing who you are pitching or selling or your client, like, what their pains are and, you know, all of that sort of stuff to me is what makes, like, a good agency as well as a good agency sales process, 

[00:37:37] Alan Magee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:37] Daniel Weiner: you know, tailoring your, uh, experience

[00:37:40] to the people in the room, rather than, like, thinking from a brand perspective. 'Cause it's, again, the brand's being run by the people sitting in front of you.

[00:37:48] Alan Magee: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. Especially in that, in that process, if you are in the sales process or the, or, or in the pitch, right? Yeah. It's like understanding the brand and then, and then really getting that value proposition of, for your agency,

[00:38:02] what are you, how are you gonna provide value? What have you done for your past clients? What have you done for someone in a like situation or maybe like life cycle of the brand, even if it's a different category? So, like, those are the type of things that are gonna give then, give confidence

[00:38:18] to the marketing leadership in there. And, and also, like you're saying, some marketing leaders at the very top, like, they want their brand associated with other brands that are on your portfolio. And, like, the biggest thing you could do is put up a slide that's got 10 other brands that you're working with, that they think, "Hey, I want, I wanna be in that same category with them.

[00:38:37] Alan Magee: I wanna be in the slide." Like, that actually wins some business. Sometimes I think agencies undersell the ego of marketers. 

[00:38:46] Daniel Weiner: I agree. I also think a lot of times people forget bringing food and beverage is a wonderful way to earn some, some excellent points in finding out what people, that's why when you said that, uh, some brands or some agencies didn't take the opportunity when you offered time, I'm like, I would've been asking what you eat, what you drink, like all, all of those things.

[00:39:03] Those are the little things that win these. 

[00:39:05] Alan Magee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's all the small stuff, right? It's all the small things, and then once you, once you get in, you just continue to, to build on it. 

[00:39:14] Daniel Weiner: Do you think once an agency relationship has been tarnished in some capacity or, like, it's in your mind, like, they did something wrong that it's possible to bring it back to positivity or, like, once that doubt has been put in your mind, it's kind of, like, on the outs? 

[00:39:29] Yes, it can come back. I say it's like the 20, 30% of the time. A lot of times, once a perception is crafted, that's where it can be really tough to come back from it, but I've had some relationships that were brought back where the agency had a poor perception internally, and it could have been for reason, a lot of times, quite frankly, they just weren't managed well from somebody.

[00:39:52] Alan Magee: Uh, you know, I put a lot of, a percentage of agency-client relationships failing because of the client too. Like, you've gotta be able to understand how to manage the agency, how to get the best work out of them. I had one agency that just had too many handcuffs on 'em, like, they were handcuffed, and so they were only doing so much because of these handcuffs from the past,

[00:40:12] and it took some nurturing to get them off. And once we did, actually, their performance just, you know, really, really improved, but it was, it was that management side of it. So I, that's one reason, thing that I look back from my career and go, "I'm really glad that I worked in an agency for a couple years and had some really tough clients."

[00:40:32] They were good clients, but they were tough. Because now I know how to better manage an agency because, because I think about me sitting on the other side of that. So, I think a lot of it comes down to both those, but you can definitely bring it back. You just have to assess of, like, what is the "Why." Is it really the agency, or is it that, you know, we haven't helped facilitate their success either? 

[00:40:52] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, the tough-but-fair and tough-but-nice clients that I've had in my career at an agency, I think, prepared me the best for what I do now but also just in general, if you're tough, but, uh, not so nice or unfair, uh, I don't know the benefit that comes there. I think that does more detriment to the, the mental health of, uh, marketers at agencies. But you brought it up earlier, like, you know, I think you said 15 X, like, just the amount of channels and the stuff that you have to think about that's kind of, like, under your purview, with everything going on, what are you most bullish on in the marketing space right now? I mean, there's NFTs, there's Metaverse and all that stuff, which we don't have to get too much into, nor do I know enough to, uh, intelligently speak about it, but there's also in-person events that have come back post-COVID, like, what are you most pumped about, currently, for Empire or, you know, just in general? 

[00:41:42] Alan Magee: You know, I'll take it in, in twofold. Like, from an Empire perspective, just the change in consumer behavior.

[00:41:49] Alan Magee: Like, there's a lot of consumer behavior change of, you look at the summer of just, like, how much people are, are traveling and they're getting back to some, level of like, "What is the new normalcy in life?" And so, I think that's a, a very unique challenge from a marketing side of how do we talk to people in different ways?

[00:42:07] How are their habits changing? I talk to people about TikTok, and they're like, "Oh, TikTok's for, you know, the 18-year-olds." And I'm like, "No, like, I out on the golf course with a bunch of 55-year-old guys, and they're talking about, they spend two hours a day on TikTok." People's overall behavior changes, like, is changing so rapidly of how people view and, and consume media overall,

[00:42:28] right? And then, what has happened from hybrid work from home to going into an office, like, there's all these different dynamics. So, for that slide, it's just a continued evolution, and I, I think we're not gonna know kind of, like, what it really is until, for a couple years, and we're gonna look back and go, "Oh gosh, this is, like, how the consumer mindset really changed over these past two or three years with COVID."

[00:42:51] But we're kind of in it now and trying to, like, figure it out along the way. So, that's in, like, the day-to-day, which I'm excited about. I love diving into and trying to, like, test and learn and try new things. We think, like, big, big picture. We've got, like, Cookieless and Cookieless World,

[00:43:09] Web3, Metaverse, NFTs, like, all of this, all these buzzwords that, um.

[00:43:15] Daniel Weiner: That's how you have, you have to say it with the sarcastic undertone when you say these things as well.

[00:43:21] Alan Magee: And it's, I, and I say it that way because, like, I'm kind, I'm excited about these things and I've tried to listen to webinars or read or, you know, to learn enough about 'em, but

[00:43:31] I, I just, you know, I don't know, a hundred percent, I don't think anyone does, like, where all these are going, how they're gonna work together, all that. If I'm gonna bet on, like, one of those, kind of big three, like, I think Web3 probably has the most legs, quite frankly 'cause it's, you know, there's parts of Web3 that have been live, Web3 has been live or that it's going to, but it's more of a, a platform perspective

[00:43:53] and I think it's so interconnected to so many different ways of working and, really, and changing consumer mindset. I think that's the thing that ties it back to that. So, I think that's wonder. 

[00:44:03] Daniel Weiner: You don't want to, don't want to invest in the YouShouldTalkTo, uh, crypto, uh, currency after this, Alan?

[00:44:09] Alan Magee I don't think I've pitched on that yet, so. 

[00:44:12] Daniel Weiner: We'll handle, that'll be 

[00:44:12] our, that'll be our next podcast. 

[00:44:17] From that perspective, do you, like, what keeps you up at night about all of this stuff? I ask that to everybody that I've interviewed so far, and it's, uh, usually some form of, like, just similar to what you just said, like, the breadth of this stuff, the amount of stuff that is under their purview in 2022 versus, you know, 5, 10 years ago.

[00:44:39] Alan Magee: A hundred percent.

[00:44:39] I think it's a hundred percent that. It's so many different things that are happening at once, right? New media channels, thinking for the future. Like, we're talking about Cookieless, we're talking about what should we be doing as a, as a brand and thinking about marketing, not just today, but a year from now.

[00:44:57] And, also, like I said, how consumer behavior and consumer thinking is, is changing and consumers are getting inundated with thousands of messages a day, and so how do we break through, right? How are we making sure that what we're doing is impactful? And then just, quite frankly, like, people side of stuff, like, is challenging, finding the right partners, building the right team and then continuing to nurture all those relationships.

[00:45:21] So, I'd say that, interesting from a people perspective, consumers now are like, are more skeptical, they're more lo loyal, they're more promiscuous with all their brand choices. It's like, it's so much more difficult because of things that have changed with them of making sure that what we're doing from a marketing perspective has an impact.

[00:45:41] Alan Magee: And then having partners and your internal team all be thinking about all of that stuff too, while kind of, you know, running the, the day-to-day. It's, I think, the sheer quantity of everything that's happening right now.

[00:45:55] Daniel Weiner: How do you weigh, like, trying some, you know, I know TikTok's not as new currently, but, you know, how do you weigh doing something new and for a brand like you all, like, it's hard to, like, dip your toes in, you kind of have to make the decision, like, "We're doing this thing, or we're not." How do you kind of weigh that for things like, say, TikTok or Metaverse or anything like?

[00:46:15] Alan Magee: Uh, I think it's waiting till, like, for a brand for our size and what we're trying to do, and for most brands, quite frankly, unless you're a big, big brand that just has tons of money to kind of splash everywhere, you're gonna wait 'till some of these channels or opportunities get a little more mature, right?

[00:46:31] Alan Magee: You're gonna wait 'till there's some level of maturity, and then it's just testing small and trying it out there and, and seeing what you learn. Because, you know, you could have tested something a year ago, and now based on what's happened with network or channel, it's totally irrelevant what you did.

[00:46:47] And so, I like to wait until it gets to, you know, some level of it's getting close to maturity, but there's, but it's an opportunity for us, we can actually, can we actually see what the impact is? And sometimes, being super early on you can't, and it's just, you're doing for the, the sake of doing it. I always like to be throwing one or two kind of small things in there, like, trying it, learning it. It doesn't mean that it's, it doesn't work,

[00:47:08] Alan Magee: it does. You don't ever go back to it maybe six months later, "Oh, hey, this has changed with it. Okay. Let's go back and let's try it in a different way as part of it." 

[00:47:17] Daniel Weiner: No, that makes sense. I, I've been dipping my toes in the TikTok pool, so to speak, and it's just, it's a, interesting to suck so bad at something and, you know, I have no idea what I'm doing there. And also just seeing, like, the randomness and not necessarily understanding, like, you know, I had one video that has significantly more views than anything I've put on there.

[00:47:38] It's the same as some of the other things, and I have no idea why. So, uh, it's also frustrating just to try new things and not understand it. I like to think I have, like, a firm understanding of LinkedIn and Instagram and stuff like that and what plays well there, but new channels, uh, like you said, even if you are early and see some success, oftentimes you didn't learn. You either got lucky or you're just super early and all that sort of stuff.

[00:48:00] So, I think the learning part is super important for everyone out there. The final questions I have for you have nothing to do about marketing, or at least I don't think they do. What was your very first? 

[00:48:11] Alan Magee: Very first job, I was 16, I got a job at McDonald's, and I was at. 

[00:48:17] Daniel Weiner: You were destined

[00:48:17] for greatness in food, Alan.

[00:48:19] Alan Magee: I, I tell you, it's like, it, ear, very early on. I was a cook. I was there working with, working with, uh, one of my best friends and some other people, you know, to make gas money, and I had the greatest time learning about actually working a real job and making sure you're clocking in and how you've gotta make sure that, you know, you're cooking enough pies to get you through the end of the night and you're doing this, and you're that.

[00:48:44] And so, it was a, a good experience of just, like, as a 16-year-old, having some responsibility and, and learning along the way. And it's still one of the jobs that I think was the most fun. They used to give us, if you did a really good job, you got these Mc bucks. They're these little McDonald's buck 

[00:49:00] and if you got enough...

[00:49:01] Daniel Weiner: Those, those are 

[00:49:01] worth, like, those are worth 20 million today, I hope.

[00:49:03] Alan Magee: It, 

[00:49:04] I, close. I mean, if you got a certain number, you could get yourself a hamburger t-shirt that you could wear instead of your uniform, which was, was a big deal, right? And so. 

[00:49:14] Daniel Weiner: Whatever like, this is, like, early cryptocurrency, essentially.

[00:49:17] Alan Magee: Super-early crypto,

[00:49:18] right? I mean, McDonald's was, like, way ahead on this. You know, I always get, when I talk about Mc bucks, the question always comes up, right, like, "What's the equivalent of a Mc buck to a, a Stan Lee nickel?" Right? That's what people wanna know. 

[00:49:30] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, what's the conversion rate these days? I think everybody should work in a restaurant at some point in their life. I think anybody who has is generally a nicer, more patient person. Uh, I was a food expo at an Italian restaurant in high school, uh, which at the time I probably hated and complained, but looking back, I think it definitely, uh, prepared me, uh, more so for just dealing with people than literally anything I've done in my life.

[00:49:52] Speaking of food, not just because you're in the food world or been in the food world, what would be your death-row meal? And hopefully, you're never on death row. 

[00:50:00] Alan Magee: Oh my gosh. Wow. I haven't.

[00:50:02] Daniel Weiner: This is where you play, play favorite, a Smorgas board of all of your former employers.

[00:50:08] Alan Magee: Yeah. You know, here's what I'll do.

[00:50:10] I'll pull something for every, every restaurant brand I've worked at. Okay? We'll, I'll call it this way. So, first role McDonald's, definitely the Big Mac. All right? Big Mac is, and now it's funny, I look at the Big Mac and go, "It doesn't feel that big, uh, as it did back in the day." But Big Mac,

[00:50:26] and then at Arby's, I would do curly fries. 

[00:50:31] Daniel Weiner: Okay. 

[00:50:31] Alan Magee: We'll pair that together. And then going to Moe's, I would tack on Queso, and I'd make it spicy Queso. And if we did while we were there, this spicy Queso we put in Pico and all this other hot sauce and stuff like that. So, Moe's, Caso and chips. And then at Church's, it would have to be

[00:50:52] definitely the, the fried chicken plus the biscuit 'cause Church's does have legitimately the best biscuit out there. I was in the back of the restaurant making handmade biscuits when I was training there. So, pair that together and then throw in a cocktail and, you know, we've got s'mores.

[00:51:08] Daniel Weiner: I was gonna say, and then you get off, they find that you were not guilty, you get off death row, you do an Orangetheory Fitness workout to work off the hundred, the 7,000 calories that you just consumed. Alan Magee: That's right. That's right. 

[00:51:21] Daniel Weiner: And then the final question, who is someone who inspires you?

[00:51:25] Alan Magee: Oh gosh. Someone who inspires me, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll take it this, so my father, growing up, uh, I'd say he's someone that, that inspires me and here's why. So, he was a, a high school, uh, teacher and he coached all his career.

[00:51:41] So, he coached in high school sports about almost every sport at our, our high school in some way. And so, the mentality of, of living with, living with a coach, I think has shaped a lot of how I want to be as, as a leader, right? Because you've gotta be focused, you've gotta be strategic as a coach of thinking about what is your game plan, right?

[00:52:01] How do you get the most out of your people? That was always he was focused on, like, "How do I get the most out of each of these individual people in different ways? How do I set them up for success?" And he was really great at like at building relationships. So, I think, you know, intuitively, uh, I've mirrored a lot of my leadership style after him out and how he was a coach and

[00:52:20] so that's someone that I look up to, and when I go back to thinking about who I want to be as a leader, I go back to thinking about, sometimes it's like, it goes back to things that, that maybe he did that even when he was coaching me growing up, that, that 

[00:52:35] Daniel Weiner: I guess really inspired me. I have the same answer as my father, and I'll leave you with a, a quick story that I still think of and I remember vividly, and at the time, I didn't know what was going on, and now I'm like, "Oh, he, this taught me how to be ethical." I'll never forget, I don't know how old I was, probably middle school or something like that,

[00:52:52] a knock on the door and there was, this was at the time where this was such a novelty, it was a TV with a built-in VCR slash DVD, like, into it, you know, which was, like, unheard of, you usually have them stacked separately. And we do it, and my brother and I are like, "Oh my God, this is awesome." And my dad is furious, livid

[00:53:09] when he sees who it's from. And he doesn't say anything, and he walks into the room, and he picks up the phone, and he calls somebody, and he says, "If you ever send me something like this again, you don't have my, like, my, I'm taking my business elsewhere," and he returned it. Like, I think he made the UPS person, like, take it with him.

[00:53:25] He wouldn't sign for it or something. And at the time, I was like, "What are you doing? We just got a TV in the mail." Like, you know, and I came to find out it was from a, a vendor in some capacity or something and it made him uncomfortable. And I think back to that moment of thinking long-term versus short-term of like, "Yeah, he could have very easily taken it, but then, you know,

not the most ethical thing." Definitely not illegal and happens all the time, but I think back to that, uh, that all the time. So, if anybody's thinking of sending me a TV today, uh, feel free to not, I will not accept your TV. But that's all I've got for you today, Alan. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you spending some time with us.

[00:53:43] Um, I presume the best spot for people to find you as well as pitch you all of their services and technology would be LinkedIn, and you're looking for 100 to 200 new pitches today. Is that, uh, accurate? 

[00:54:14] Alan Magee: At, at least. If not, this podcast will have been a disappointment. 

[00:54:17] Daniel Weiner: I hope that I get some sponsors from this. I hope you get all of the, uh, technology pitches.

[00:54:22] Just remember, if you need agencies, you come back to me, but technology providers, you can, you can dabble with that. But, no, I appreciate it. This was awesome. And, uh. Go Tigers. 

[00:54:30] Alan Magee: Go Tigers. All right. 

[00:54:32] Daniel Weiner: Talk to you soon.