[00:00:00] Kathleen Booth: I think one of the biggest disconnects that happens with agency experiences is you talk to somebody who sounds great, and then when you start working with that company, you're handed off to an execution team and they may or may not be great. And so when you're vetting agencies, one of the things I like to do is say, "Who's gonna be working day to day on my account?

[00:00:19] I wanna meet with those people before I sign to make sure I'm comfortable that they know what they're doing." 

[00:01:04] Daniel Weiner: Hello, and welcome to episode five of the YouShouldTalkTo podcast. I am Daniel Wiener and this podcast is currently brought to you by myself, as well as YouShouldTalkTo until we get our first sponsor, which maybe happens after today with our wonderful guest. YouShouldTalkTo pairs brands and marketers for free

[00:01:20] with vetted agencies and or freelancers for pretty much any marketing or technique, because finding agencies is a pain in the ass. Super excited today to be joined by Kathleen Booth, who is also a podcast owner and newly minted SVP of Marketing at Pavilion, an organization that I have been a part of for many years as well.

[00:01:38] Kathleen, thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:01:41] Kathleen Booth: Thanks for having me, Daniel. I'm really excited to be here. 

[00:01:44] Daniel Weiner: What's it like being on the other side of the, uh, the aisle here in terms of, uh, being interviewed on a podcast? 

[00:01:50] Kathleen Booth: Oh, I love it. I mean, I always think of podcasts as just conversations that happen to be, uh, recorded.

[00:01:55] So, and I always love talking to you. So I'm excited to be here. 

[00:01:59] Daniel Weiner: Do you enjoy being interviewed or interviewing more? 

[00:02:02] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, gosh. Probably interviewing only because I feel like I learned so much. You know, I just it's like an excuse for me to get free consulting. 

[00:02:12] Daniel Weiner: That's true. 

[00:02:13] Kathleen Booth: No, I really, I learn a lot from my guests, and I tend to invite people on because selfishly, there's something I wanna learn from them.

[00:02:19] So I always love that, and it's just so interesting to dig into people and understand like their expertise and things they're good at. 

[00:02:26] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, that's great. I'm particularly excited about this because you kind of check the box of, uh, the multiple sides of the ecosystem that I work within. So I want to hear about that.

[00:02:35] You've been agency side, you've been brand side. Can you give a little, you know, background of how you got here and kind of like where your expertise lies? 

[00:02:42] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. So I have a really strange career journey. I actually spent the first 10 to 15 years of my career doing something completely different.

[00:02:50] I was in international development consulting, but I happened to do two graduate degrees prior to that. So I did my master's in International Politics, which is what led me down that path. But I had also done an MBA in Marketing, I just wasn't using it a lot. And then the latter years of that career, I started kind of specializing in strategic communication for stakeholder consensus building, which is basically a way of saying like, "How do you build support for big public sector reform projects using the principles of marketing?" And that led me back into a marketing career. So when I got married and wanted to have kids and I couldn't travel all over the world anymore, my husband and I started a marketing agency, which was back in 2006 and had that business for 11 years.

[00:03:35] And, you know, we really had like two sides to the company. So, we had a digital marketing side, and then we had a kind of direct mail call it corporate gifting side. And my husband and I split responsibility for the two. Uh, we became HubSpot partners, and that was a big influence on the, the trajectory of our business.

[00:03:58] And then we sold that company in 2017, and since then, I've been in-house in a variety of different, mostly B2B SaaS companies, um, which all led me to Pavilion where I'm really excited to take on the role of Head of Marketing. 

[00:04:13] Daniel Weiner: And you and your husband are still married, which not many can say after starting a business together.

[00:04:17] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:04:18] Daniel Weiner: You survived. Uh, that, did you, did you ever kill each other at some point? 

[00:04:22] I will definitely say that the greatest accomplishment of my life is still being married after 11 years of working with my spouse. And we started working together before we got married. So we never, the first 11 years of our marriage, we literally had never not worked together.

[00:04:35] Kathleen Booth: We didn't know anything different. It's great now. He's also a head of marketing in a technology company. And so we are the nerdy couple that still has a Slack channel, and we Slack each other all day about marketing things. So, you know, old habits die hard, but no. It's it was good. And, you know, he came from a sales background,

[00:04:53] I came from a marketing background, so that actually was a good combination for us. 

[00:04:58] Daniel Weiner: Do you miss the agency world of being on that side of it? 

[00:05:01] Kathleen Booth: Sometimes. So, I miss, I do miss owning my business. Like there's, I, I love entrepreneurship. I had a second startup when I had my agency. I love the how much I grew as a person in my years as an agency owner.

[00:05:16] I mean, I had to teach myself everything and about being a leader, running a company, growing a business, et cetera. And that, you know, I learned more in that 11 years than I've ever learned at any other point in my life. And I loved the people I got to work with. Like we, at our largest, I think we had 13 employees.

[00:05:33] We had some amazing people work for us. Some of whom I've continued to work with, um, all these years later, and some of whom have gone on to do amazing things. And then we had some really wonderful customers that have become true friends to me. So, you know, those are all the things that I miss, but I do also love what I'm doing now.

[00:05:52] Daniel Weiner: That's awesome. Having owned and operated an agency, do you think now, you know, Pavilion as well as other companies you've worked for in the past, do you think you have a different perspective or maybe more empathy potentially when you are looking to hire vendors and bring on, you know, new agency partners and stuff like that, having been one yourself?

[00:06:09] Kathleen Booth: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's really interesting having seen both sides. And I would say I am much more well aware of like the things that agencies do well and should be given more credit for, and also should be able to bill for. Like, there's a lot of things that companies don't wanna pay them for that, that they should be paid for.

[00:06:29] But I also have a bunch better sense of, from a customer side, you know, what you should demand from an agency and what you should not put up with and the questions you should ask. And also the things that you have to be willing to follow through on, on your end, in order to, you know, keep up your end of the bargain for a healthy relationship with an agency.

[00:06:49] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:06:50] I find typically folks that I deal with who have an agency experience are typically tough, but fair clients when I was at an agency, as well as in the, uh, the format that I work now. But, I think it's, probably makes you a better client, I would imagine for, uh, your current agency partners. 

[00:07:06] Kathleen Booth: I hope so.

[00:07:07] I mean, I, I'll say this when I have my agency. The things that I couldn't stand were, I mean, there's probably a long laundry list, but clients who, you know, we would give them a deliverable, and it would take them forever to provide feedback. And that just slows you down or potentially stops your progress, and so I try to be pretty quick in my feedback.

[00:07:26] I also try to be really honest because, you know, we had a lot of situations where people wouldn't, you know, they'd try to soften up their feedback if they didn't like something and that just, that that's like a wound that festers. If you don't know how clients really feeling about your work, you can't deliver your best work.

[00:07:43] Kathleen Booth: And so I do try to be candid. But I also do expect, you know, a lot of the agencies that I work with and so probably some of them would think that I'm kind of a pain in the neck. 

[00:07:55] Daniel Weiner: You're allowed to be a pain in the neck a little bit. I, I would say, as long as it's, uh, fair, truthfully. I like tough but fair clients.

[00:08:02] And I've had many over the course of my career, and probably at the time, I complained more, but looking back, those were probably the best work that our agency did. I think when you get that type of candid feedback. It's actually very serendipitous. You know, you had a post on, I believe LinkedIn, go like relatively viral recently.

[00:08:17] And you talked about, I think the headline was like, "Community is the new Google," and now you're working for, you know, a community, so to speak. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like prior to what did you mean by that? I guess that's a good place to start. 

[00:08:30] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. I mean, I when I think about marketing and, and what works, I try to observe just behavior that I see in the real world in terms of how people are buying, how I'm buying

[00:08:41] and how that's changing, right? And I look back days when I had my agency. And as I said, we were HubSpot partners, so we were all in on this notion that, you know, the buying journey began in Google. People ask questions, they go to Google for answers, so you create content, so you're found. Like that was narrative arc that we

[00:09:00] Kathleen Booth: really employed for many years with our customers. And it, and it was true at the time. But things have changed and I think COVID had a big impact on the buying journey. And what happened was, you know, when the pandemic set in, we couldn't go to in-person events anymore. We weren't out networking. We weren't doing meetings with people.

[00:09:19] And so a lot of us flocked to online communities as a way to not just continue to have human connection, but to learn and get our questions answered. And you know, it really became apparent quickly that community was not just gonna be the new conference, right? Like it was the place we all met up, but it was the new Google because it was so much faster and more effective to go to my community of CMO peers and Pavilion and say, "Hey,

[00:09:50] I need to purchase a new website chat software," just as an example, "What are you using?" Instead of going to Google and trying to sift through it all myself. You know, and it's fascinating because, for my podcast, which is called The Inbound Success Podcast, I've been doing it for over five years.

[00:10:07] And at the end of every episode, I ask a question of the marketers that I interview. And the question is, you know, "With digital marketing changing so quickly, how do you personally stay educated and up to date?" And it's been really interesting to watch the evolution of the answers I've gotten. So in the first, I would say two to three years of the show, the answers would be like, "I subscribe to newsletters," or, "I listen to podcasts," or, "I have these blogs that I love, or these particular websites I follow, or these books that I read."

[00:10:36] And in the last year and a half to two years, I would say 90 plus percent of the time the answer is, "I have a community of peers that I turn to." And it could be a Slack community. It could be my LinkedIn connections, but almost everybody has said, "I rely on other people to keep me educated." And I think the reason for that is it's just faster and more efficient and better, right?

[00:11:03] The information is vetted by trusted sources. And what I mean, when I say community is the new Google to bring it full circle is like now with the buying journey, folks, don't go directly to Google. They go directly to their communities. They ask for recommendations, they develop a shortlist and then they go to Google.

[00:11:22] But instead of doing some sort of long tail search and asking a question, they're putting in the names of the three recommended solution providers they were given from their community peers and going directly to those websites to vet does this solution really do what I needed to do. And so if you are a company with something to sell,

[00:11:44] today, it's not to say that SEO isn't important anymore, it certainly still is. But today, if you really wanna get at bets for high intent qualified leads, the ones that really turn into revenue, you need to be the name that's mentioned in a community. 

[00:11:59] Daniel Weiner: No, I totally agree. I think it's interesting too to think about it from the company side as well.

[00:12:04] I posted recently or talked about it a little bit, like it's definitely Google, it's also like the new version of the town square. And if you act out of line, so to speak, communities for the most part, for my experience are kind of self-policed, uh, to a certain degree. You know, groups like Pavilion definitely have like corporate members in there, but like, if you act negatively or pardon, my friends, like an asshole, like people are kind of gonna tell you you're self-policed.

[00:12:26] And I think it's interesting, I think companies should probably invest in like teaching people how to act in communities and stuff like that, especially from a sales perspective. You know, I'm still I'm in numerous communities and get pitched via DM by people I don't know and stuff like that. And you know, the negative effect is hard to measure, but I think like companies should definitely invest in a,

[00:12:49] having their employees engage in communities is just probably good in general, but also like the way to extract value from them while still, you know, there's a way to sell without selling within communities. And I think, uh, a very small minority of people have mastered that. 

[00:13:03] Kathleen Booth: Oh, I totally agree. And it's funny that you say that because what springs into my mind when you talk about it, is that like five to seven years ago

[00:13:12] what people were talking about was social selling, teaching salespeople how to sell on social media in a way that wasn't spammy and was effective. And I think there's a lot of them that still need that lesson, uh, based on my LinkedIn inbox. But I think today, the next natural evolution of that is community selling,

[00:13:32] right? You're exactly right. Like how do you participate in communities and how do form relationships, and how do you translate those, bridge that gap and, and create pipeline out of it, it's a pretty subtle art. I think there's definitely a lot of education needed around that. 

[00:13:47] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think it's hard.

[00:13:48] I, I feel for salespeople in communities, I theoretically am one as well. It's, uh, I think companies often put short-term goals in place. And the only way I think to be successful in a community is to think in the long game. You know, people I do business with now who I met five years ago via community,

[00:14:06] and you can't rush that relationship coming to fruition in terms of doing business, which is why I think Pavilion or say may have put out something recently that was like, oh, you know, there's so much business that occurs within Pavilion, but it's not a place to actively go in saying, "I'm gonna do business here," and stuff like that. You know, you give, and you get, and it happens organically, but yeah, I mean, it's I think it's the digital equivalent of like, what's the quote? It's, uh, it takes, you know, 20 years to build a reputation and 20 seconds to ruin it.

[00:14:32] I think it can have like a really profound effect if you're, you know, company-wide behaving poorly within a community, because all of your peers are already there, which I think people think of from the positive side, "Oh, we can sell to all these people, but they don't realize like one negative act can have such a profound effect at a company level for them."

[00:14:53] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, the old school, private clubs that have existed for forever. And I think this is the interesting thing about community is that it's somewhat is democratizing what used to be the old boy's network, you know? The old boy's network used to be the, the, the relationships that were formed in exclusive private clubs that you could only get into

[00:15:14] if you were male and you know, of a certain status, et cetera. And in, was the relationships that were formed in those places that led to deals being done. And, oh, by the way, nobody was walking into those clubs either and saying, "Hey, want me to do a demo of my software for you?" They were just forming relationships.

[00:15:32] And then people would naturally find out, you know, where those people worked, and people naturally wanna buy from people they know and like, right? And that's how it happens. And so the great thing about the communities that we have today is that the doors have been thrown wide open. You know, it's no longer an old boy's network.

[00:15:50] It's an, a network for anyone who is willing and able to raise their hand and participate. And that is a great thing from a business development standpoint, from a career development standpoint. I think, you know, it's, it's a really positive thing for all of us. 

[00:16:06] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, no, that's a really good segue 'cause I aim to kind of, one of the taglines I use is that I aim to democratize the agency space a little bit in that just, you know, there's just so many agencies out there. There's like 80,000 independent agencies owned and operated in the US alone.

[00:16:20] What that real number is, I don't know, since there's several, uh, that could be a whole other podcast of like one person agencies who claim their agencies, which I would say should own the fact that they're not an agency. But, you know, to that sense, like what are you looking for when you look for a vendor?

[00:16:34] You know, there's not only a small group of like big name agencies. There are plenty, but you know, there's so many small agencies that no one's ever heard of. When you're looking for a vendor to do something specific, what are you looking for typically? 

[00:16:48] Kathleen Booth: I mean, you know, it's the indefinable sort of skills, right?

[00:16:51] Like, I want somebody who really understands what it means to get the job done right. And how do you vet that? I mean, you can certainly look at past experience and get references. And that's why I do, definitely go into my communities and ask for recommendations, 'cause I wanna hear who's done a good job for other people.

[00:17:09] 'Cause there are a lot of well-known... 

[00:17:10] Daniel Weiner: Do you care about references? Sorry to interrupt, I'm just curious. I have a cynical view of references. Do you care when like you're vetting someone if they give you references? 

[00:17:19] Kathleen Booth: I don't necessarily want the reference they give me, I want the reference that I'm able to find on my own.

[00:17:26] I, I think 

[00:17:26] Daniel Weiner: it's funny when people ask for references. 

[00:17:28] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:17:28] Daniel Weiner: 'Cause who are they gonna send you? Clients... 

[00:17:29] Kathleen Booth: Right, exactly. 

[00:17:30] Daniel Weiner: Hate and say terrible things about them, which is why I think it's funny to hear which, you know, plenty of brands I work with are like, "Oh, we're checking references." I'm like, "I can save you three phone calls."

[00:17:38] They're gonna tell you they're wonderful and they do awesome work, you know? 

[00:17:41] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. That's why I would rather post and say, "I'm looking for an agency for X, who's done a great job for you in the past?" And I, you know, in a Pavilion chat, for example, and, and the answers I get, those are answers that are not prompted by the vendor asking them to say something.

[00:17:56] They're just people who are really happy with the service they're getting. Again, this is why community's so powerful. So those kinds of references I definitely value. But then there's a couple of other things that I would suggest people do in terms of vetting. And this is lessons learned from my agency days.

[00:18:12] The first is that generally when you're talking to an agency before you hire them, you're depending on the size of the company, you're either talking to their head of sales, or you're talking to the founder or, you know, somebody kind of, let's say in a leadership position. This is generally not the person that's going to be doing the work on your account.

[00:18:32] And so I think one of the biggest disconnects that happens with agency experiences is you talk to somebody who sounds great. And then, when you start working with that company, you're handed off to an execution team, and they may or may not be great. And so when you're vetting agencies, one of the things I like to do is say, "Who's gonna be working day to day on my account?

[00:18:53] I wanna meet with those people before I sign to make sure I'm comfortable that they know what they're doing." Because look, the agency world is tough, right? It's entirely tied to the, the company's ability to hire. Unfortunately, with the agency model, a lot of times, they're not in a position to hire a head of demand.

[00:19:11] And so you got people coming in, and they're new to the company, and they need to start working on accounts right away. And if they don't have a lot of experience, you know, you, what you don't want is that new person to be learning on your job. So I would ask, "How long has your, you know, account manager been working at the company?

[00:19:31] I would interview them and make sure you're comfortable with them." 

[00:19:36] Daniel Weiner: No, I'm dealing with that, well, usually daily, but, uh, now I'm helping a brand right now with a website search, and they're down to two agencies, and they thought they made a selection. And the feedback from the other agency was, "We thought they were

[00:19:47] just as capable, the price was better." Uh, and I, I went to, uh, to school with this person, and her comment was, "I hate to say this, but, uh, the vibes felt off." 

[00:19:55] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:19:56] Daniel Weiner: Uh, and I kind of reminded them like, "Well, you're not gonna be working with that person. So, you know, you can always ask to speak to who you're gonna be working with."

[00:20:01] And they were like, "Oh yeah. I can do that?" I think oftentimes, brand marketers, I find forget that they can ask for literally anything truthfully, you know? They're originating the opportunity and the money and often forget that they can ask for more and dive into more detail and presumably, within reason get whatever they want during the presale process.

[00:20:20] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's worth doing that. It's worth going beyond that initial person that you're presented with. 

[00:20:26] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. I joke with most people, I, when they get to the finish line, I supremely believe like you should be really excited to sign an agency contract, at least on the front end.

[00:20:35] Like it could end up being the worst decision you ever make, the whole project could fall apart, but on the front end, like you should be really excited. And if you're not, uh, you know, you're signing presumably a big contract, large sum of money, like you should keep searching, 'cause it's probably not the right fit, or you haven't had enough conversations.

[00:20:51] But I do think you should be really pumped at the opportunity and the promise of what could happen by signing that deal. I've seen a big shift since COVID of bigger brands moving towards, like small independent agencies typically specialize in like one to three services seems to be like the sweet spot and even like fortune 100 and even fortune 10, moving away from like AOR stuff.

[00:21:14] Daniel Weiner: Do you see that? Do you agree with that? What do you think there? 

[00:21:19] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. I mean, I think it makes sense, because it's, look, it's very hard to be all things to all people and do it well. You know, when you, there's that old saying. What is it? "When you're an expert in everything, you're an expert in nothing." Yeah,

[00:21:31] and so I think it makes a ton of sense and it's probably the approach I would take. I don't think I would hire one agency to do everything for me, 'cause I've, I've worked in those kinds of companies, I've had those companies work for me and it just, it's not a good model. Because again, you know, especially from a talent standpoint. Like how are you developing true expertise if you're trying to do everything?

[00:21:52] Kathleen Booth: So, yes. If I were gonna be hiring agencies, I'd probably go to the different agency for content than I would for PR, you know, than I would for my ABM campaigns, et cetera. 

[00:22:05] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, the internet is exhausting. I don't know how anybody can presume or claim to be an expert at all the things. That's why truthfully, when I talk to folks in your role, like it oftentimes becomes a little bit of a therapy session of... We have so many things going on.

[00:22:18] Like how do we get all these things done and find the expertise we need? You know, TikTok being like one of the newer asks I get, or even like Web3-related stuff. And yeah, it's exhausting. There's something new every single day that you have to keep your, uh, your finger on the pulse of. 

[00:22:33] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. And at the risk of being a little controversial, I think the smart agency owners are niching down because the ones who try to be generalists that's becoming more commoditized.

[00:22:45] You know, it's not a great business to be in. And, you know, I think, if they're being generalists, it makes me wonder, "Are they doing this because they're afraid they won't have enough business, right?" Is it a defensive move to say, "Oh, I'll work with anyone because that'll keep my pipeline full."

[00:23:01] Was the ones who niche down tend to become real experts in their area of specialization, and they actually tend to do better from a pipeline generation standpoint? They're in a position to be able to say 'no' because they're sought after, right? Like, and so maybe I'm wrong, and I'm willing to be challenged on this, but that's kind of the perception that I have.

[00:23:23] Daniel Weiner: I don't think you're wrong. I think the side I saw being at an agency oftentimes was we did, in my opinion, website design and development really well. We would do that and we had a marketing portion of the business, which I don't think was as strong. And we were more picky and selective there. When you do a good job at one thing, oftentimes, brands would be like, "Oh, well, you did such a good job.

[00:23:43] Can you do this?" And you'd say, "Well, like not really." And they're like, "Well, come on." You know, they kind of like talk you into it. You know, as an agency owner, any business owner, it's hard to turn down money and you know, sometimes you don't think it's as diff, you're like, "Oh, well we've mastered web design and development.

[00:23:57] Like surely we can figure out, you know, these two or three things. We have some expertise there." And I think what I've seen is the most successful agencies that I work with at least are just so disciplined in what they take on truthfully. Like they do not give in to those types of, of like, "Oh, come on, like, you can do this for us.

[00:24:17] You, you did these three things." They really are super disciplined at saying 'no' to things that aren't the right fit or don't provide like long-term value in terms of what they have going on at the agency. 

[00:24:28] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. I, I totally agree. 

[00:24:30] Daniel Weiner: How much are you getting references through LinkedIn inbox, uh, earlier? How often are you getting hit up by vendors?

[00:24:37] Kathleen Booth: I mean, all the time, multiple times per day. They're very persistent. Um, it's fascinating to me, and I just, I have a hard time imagining that it's actually really working, but it must be if they keep doing it. 

[00:24:51] I don't know. 

[00:24:52] Daniel Weiner: I think that all the time. Like it has to be working in some capacity, but I don't know.

[00:24:57] The, the reason I ask, "Is there anything that a cold vendor can send you via LinkedIn, email, anything that makes them stand out or makes you interested?" The, the typical answer I get is like, "Yeah. It's insanely timely." You know, if I'm looking for X and a vendor like that, you know, sends me a message the next day, like I'm going to be somewhat interested, but is there anything that a vendor can do cold to stand out in your opinion?

[00:25:18] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:25:18] I mean, the timeliness definitely is a factor. I think the other thing is just like really personalized where it's like super clear that they've done their homework. I mean, I put a lot of myself out onto LinkedIn. It's not hard to, you know, figure stuff out about me. Like, and every now and then I'll have somebody pitch me, and they'll say, "You know, I listen to your podcast.

[00:25:40] Here's a specific episode I enjoyed. Here's why I enjoyed it. Oh, by the way, like, you know, we have this other thing in common." And you know, like when they've really done their homework, I'm not, it's not a guarantee that I'm gonna take their call, but I'm definitely gonna feel much more receptive to it. And I'm gonna at least appreciate the effort that went into putting together that pitch, as opposed to like, I mean, I get some that I don't even think they've even looked at my profile where somebody says like, "Does your agency need lead generation help?"

[00:26:11] And I'm like, "I haven't owned an agency since 2017," you know, or, "Here's, we have some healthcare content for you." And I'm just like, "I, I didn't even know what in my LinkedIn profile would give you the notion that I could use healthcare content. I've never worked in a healthcare company." So it's fascinating to me how some companies have this on total autopilot.

[00:26:31] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I get lumped in, I presume with some sort of data, maybe it's my content or what's in my LinkedIn. I get lumped in as an agency, which I always think it's funny because I'm like, "If you looked for two seconds, you would know I'm not an actual agency myself." I interviewed Nicole Smith of Tackle and her, I think her answer was very similar to yours and it was, "But send me wine."

[00:26:50] So if there's any gift that you're looking for, Kathleen, now's the time to, uh, to tell the vendors out there, what, uh, what gets a reaction if they send it to you. 

[00:26:58] Kathleen Booth: Oh, my God, please send me a personal assistant. 

[00:27:01] Daniel Weiner: That's, I don't, you may have human beings show up at your door soon. So be careful. 

[00:27:06] Kathleen Booth: Oh God. No, don't send actual people.

[00:27:08] Daniel Weiner: I don't think I have enough listeners for somebody to do that currently, but you never know. Can you think of, I'll, I'll ask you the positive and the negative, can you think of like a really positive agency experience that you've had in the past while you've been on the brand side, and what made that so positive?

[00:27:23] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple of agencies I've worked with that well, one in particular where funny enough it was, it was somebody that I hired at my company who then went on to work at another agency. And when I was in, in-house at an another B2B technology company, I hired this agency.

[00:27:42] And this woman, her name is Stacy Willis, I'll mention her name 'cause she's amazing. She's now the Vice President of Marketing in a company called Playwire. And she's an unbelievable marketer. So she was still in-house as a strategist at that time. And I knew I wanted to work with her. And to this day, if she would still take on client work, I would work with her again and again and again and again.

[00:28:03] And the reason it made for such a great relationship is that she always approached client engagements with a true ownership mentality. In other words, like she wasn't waiting for me to tell her what needed to be done. She was proactively saying, "Hey, I had an idea. I have a suggestion. I think this would be really good."

[00:28:25] She was pushing me sometimes. Also, you know, we would have a scope of work that was defined, and then we might be on a weekly call, and I'd say, "Ugh, I'm working on this thing, and it's taking me way too long, and it might have nothing to do with our scope of work," but it was something she was good at.

[00:28:41] And she'd be like, "Let me take that off your plate." I'm still paying her to do all of this, but that kind of not allowing yourself to live within the box of, "This is the scope, here's what I was told to do, I'm just gonna go do it." And really being, coming at it with that ownership mentality and, and trying to like make the client's life easier, trying to make them the hero, take things off their plate and be proactive. To me,

[00:29:05] that's when, and then of course, following through and like doing what you say you're going to do when you're you say you're going to do it and at a high level of quality. Like if you put those things together, that's the magic, right? 

[00:29:19] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. 

[00:29:19] I think it's interesting. I found at an agency like the, and it's, non-tangible probably, is the dichotomy and like the perfect storm or perfect combination of like what you mentioned of being super proactive and not just living within the constraints of, you know, the scope as well as like teetering the line of like, "Well, we're at homeostasis, and things are good.

[00:29:40] So like, you don't wanna rock the boat," while also being cognizant of your agency. And like, when things do go out of scope of like, "When is the right time to bring these things up?" And there's not an answer to it. I think it's like I, I go back to like knowing your client truthfully and like how they want to be communicated with and all that sort of stuff.

[00:29:58] Um, I think is the most important thing I would, uh, in terms of like being a successful agency, either salesperson or account person, you take away everything and truthfully, just go back to what you said of how do you make your client's life easier and then you kind of figure out the rest from there. I can remember being in the position, uh, whether it was right or wrong,

[00:30:18] I'll, I'll say somewhere in between of being on calls with clients, uh, that were always going out of scope and stuff and trying to be cognizant of like our time and things. And it's a tough position to be in 'cause clients do not want to hear like, "We're out of scope," or, "This is gonna be more money." And there's definitely a, a song and dance of having those conversations in the right, you know, time and the right fashion and probably on a one-to-one basis,

[00:30:42] Rather than bringing them up in the moment. 

[00:30:44] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:30:44] I think it, it all comes down to trust, right? Like the best agency relationships are the ones where there's a feeling of trust and a relationship. And that's why, by the way, when I was hiring people from my agency, you know, it was, there were two challenges.

[00:30:58] One was finding people who knew marketing and were good at it, but the even bigger one was finding people who were great communicators and relationship builders. Like you need to find people who are all of those things, 'cause that's really what underscores a great agency-client relationship. So if you're the client and you trust the agency, what's gonna happen is there's never a bad time to bring up the conversation around you're going out of scope.

[00:31:19] And, and honestly, the conversation shouldn't really be you're going out of scope. It should really be, "Here are all the things that we agreed we were gonna work on. I'm happy to do this other thing. We can either take something off of the existing list and replace it, or we can expand the scope." You know, like it's not, it's not just, "Pay me more,"

[00:31:39] it should be, "Okay, you know, let's look at what the priorities were and see if they've shifted." And that's why I think you see a lot of agencies moving to this like agile um way of tackling work because they it gives them a better framework within which to have that conversation. Like, "We're in our sprint,

[00:31:53] why don't we take some things out, and we can pop this in and maybe move these to later." That conversation's very easy if you trust the person you're having it with. It's when you haven't built a good relationship, and you don't have trust that that relationship takes the agency relationship off the rails.

[00:32:08] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. 

[00:32:09] You kind of mentioned it at the very end, but not on the front end, which I think is interesting, 'cause I think that way as well. Most times when I ask that question, nobody mentions the work, which I think is interesting, 'cause I, my controversial take is, "I don't think the work matters," and what I mean by that is, of course, it matters,

[00:32:25] but if you don't have the relationship and you're not making your life easier, and you're not likable and trustworthy, and on the same team, you don't even get to do the work 'cause you're not getting picked. And you're probably not gonna arrive that good work. What are your thoughts there? Like, do you think, what's more important to you,

[00:32:40] I guess I should say the relationship, the work, equally weighted? 

[00:32:44] Kathleen Booth: I mean, oh, it's, this is like a chicken and egg question. 

[00:32:47] Daniel Weiner: Yeah.

[00:32:48] I feel like the work should be table stakes, right? Like you need to be delivering great work. That is the core business that you're in. If it was a software company, you would be saying... Yeah, if it, if we were talking about software, we'd be saying you have to have a good product.

[00:33:00] Kathleen Booth: Right? Like, you just do, right? You can't, all the best marketing in the world can't save a bad product. Similarly, on the agency side, so the work is the product. The work has to be good. But the, you're right. Like the relationship is really the thing that takes an, you know, an okay agency and makes it great.

[00:33:19] And it's the agencies that recognize that that relationship and that trust is at the core of things that do well, but it's also the agencies that never take that relationship or that trust for granted because that's the other thing. Like we're talking about building long-term relationships like most agency relationships are retainer-based,

[00:33:38] and so you're talking about months or years of work together. And if you start to take that for granted, that's when you lose clients because they can feel that. They sense that you're not their top priority and so there might be trust, and there might be a relationship, but there, they might not be feeling that the light of your, your love and attention.

[00:33:58] And, and I think that's when you see churn happen. 

[00:34:01] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. If I ever write a book, it'll be about that sixth sense of being the head of sales at an agency of having that feeling like, "We're gonna get a shitty email from this client today." Like, "I know that they're pissed off, I know they're pissed off." And then, like low and behold, 20 minutes later, you get a grumpy email and...

[00:34:18] You can't teach it, honestly, I think the agency sales role, whether it's done by an actual individual with that title or the agency owner/ Rainmaker, whatever you wanna call it, is such an interesting dynamic because it is so largely relationship base. And I truthfully think like it's, I hate to use the word impossible, but I think like an outbound motion for an agency is

[00:34:39] not necessarily a waste of time 'cause I know it works for some. 

[00:34:42] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:34:42] Daniel Weiner: But I think there's just significantly better ways if you think long term versus short term to build out the client base that way. 

[00:34:49] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's so funny you talk about the, the email because I, to this day, have a sixth sense.

[00:34:56] Like I've had it with all the software companies where I've worked, where you we've had, you know, we'll have a big customer, and we'll get an email like, "Can we have a meeting next Thursday?" And it sort of comes out of the blue, and I'm like, "We're gonna get fired." Like I just know, I know when that's gonna happen

[00:35:13] from my agency days. It's like a weird, it's a weird sixth sense that you develop. 

[00:35:17] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. It's a, it's an unhealthy sixth sense to develop when you know that those emails are coming or phone, even better the phone calls. 

[00:35:24] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:35:24] Daniel Weiner: You haven't, I'm guessing you haven't been yelled at by a client in ages,

[00:35:27] do you miss that side of it? 

[00:35:29] Kathleen Booth: I don't miss that. You know, I I've definitely had those calls, and sometimes, by the way, there are times when, when you get yelled at by a client, and you're, you're like absolutely, "We screwed up." And, and I, as the owner, would have to be the one to say, "We own that. Like, we're, here's how we're gonna make it right." 

[00:35:46] And then there were times when I would get yelled at by a client, and there's one, in particular, I'm thinking of, and I, and I fired that client. I was like, "Look, you not only are you yelling at me and you're not holding up your end of the bargain, but you've yelled at people who work for me, and it's creating an unhealthy culture.

[00:36:03] And oh, by the way, just because you're the customer does not mean you get to treat my people badly." And so that is one thing to keep in mind, if you're somebody who's hiring an agency is as the customer, you know, you still need to pay respect to the people that are doing work for you. You can give them the tough feedback, but you still need to do it respectfully.

[00:36:22] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. It's funny you bring that up. There's uh, definitely several of those I've dealt with in my career. There's also no greater feeling than firing a client, in my opinion, when you're at an agency and being in that position of power, since you rarely theoretically have the power. 

[00:36:35] Kathleen Booth: And your whole, by the way, when you fire a toxic client, the entire agency... 

[00:36:40] Daniel Weiner: Oh, it's awesome.

[00:36:40] Kathleen Booth: team emotional mood lifts. Like everybody feels and, and it's important to do it, honestly, if that's happening, because you will lose great agency employees very quickly if you allow them to be abused by customers. 

[00:36:55] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. I think it's truthfully, too. Like you talked about, you have to have trust, and I think it's also too, like people presale when it's all happy go lucky and you're being courted, and there's like, you know, happy hours and dinners and stuff.

[00:37:06] It's all fun, and then like, theoretically, you sign a contract, there's an exchange of money, it should still be that. You should be on the same team. And I think oftentimes marketers, for whatever reason, it becomes like a combative thing, once a contract is signed and you're not on the same team, and it's you,

[00:37:21] the agency is more like a, a juniorish employee, which is bizarre to me because the agency oftentimes more so than employees want to see astronomical success because it keeps them around with these larger retainers that are a big portion of their revenue for years to come. 

[00:37:38] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:37:39] Daniel Weiner: I've seen that plenty of times where, can't remember who said it, but it was, uh, like, "Believe the client when they show you. If they're gonna be a pain in the ass presale, it's not getting better post-sale."

[00:37:48] Because now they're paying. 

[00:37:49] Kathleen Booth: So true. 

[00:37:49] Daniel Weiner: It's gonna get worse. 

[00:37:50] Kathleen Booth: You just reminded me of something I, I have to bring it up because I've never talked about this with anybody, but I had this...

[00:37:57] 

[00:37:57] Daniel Weiner: You're, you're here, you're here, at here first where... 

[00:37:59] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, I had this realization. A year ago, when I was really thinking about myself,

[00:38:04] my transition from agency owner to in-house marketer. And one of the hardest lessons I had to learn, and this was like a hangover from my agency days, was embracing like publicly embracing failure more. I work in a lot of startups, and so you, you wind up experiencing a lot of failure. That's kind of

[00:38:24] the MO of the startup culture, but you know, going to a board of directors and saying, "We tried this, and it didn't work." And learning that that was actually seen as a good thing, because what happens is, when you're in an agency, you know, you have to constantly be winning, right? Like that's how you keep the business.

[00:38:43] They, clients come to you because they're either not able to, or they don't have the, the resources to win on their own. And so they come to you for those wins and, and how you keep business is you consistently show results, right? And so in some ways your agency longevity or your, your, your existence as an agency is dictated by your ability to continuously show success.

[00:39:06] And that, know, that's great in the sense that it's a big, good motivator. It's a good, you know, challenge, but it's unhealthy, like when you think about the constant pressure that puts you under. And when you go in-house, if you're somebody who's worked at an agency and you leave and you go in-house, it's the hardest thing to kick. Constantly feeling like you have to be showing that you've succeeded is not a good thing in-house.

[00:39:29] You need to be able to embrace failure and to communicate like the all the things you've learned from it and how it's gonna make you better. And so that's one thing I came to realize was like I have to shake the agency hangover. I have to embrace that being wrong, and failing are all good things.

[00:39:45] You don't wanna do them all the time, but like, it's a an important part of the mix. 

[00:39:49] Daniel Weiner: I think it's also, too. It's interesting when I, I think for whatever reason, because of what I do, like when I talk to brands often, they're under the impression like all of the an agencies that I work with are like perfect angels.

[00:40:00] They're the best at what they do at everything, and like, there's no mistakes. And I kind of tell them, like, "I don't think any agency truthfully at this point is the best at anything, but there's a best for you in that situation based on your budget, and you know, the few agencies you're speaking with." I think the measure of a good agency, too, you brought it up a little while ago is how they respond and act when shit happens, which it always does a hundred percent of the time. Like, "Something bad is gonna happen at some point, you know, who do you trust is gonna pick up the phone and call you and own it and figure out how to do it?"

[00:40:33] Or, "If they mess up on a Friday, you know, at 5 o'clock, who's gonna stay till 6 to like make sure it gets rectified and stuff like that?" Like, I think that's oftentimes not thought about a ton, and agencies are quick to not necessarily hide, but like, "Oh, like this isn't gonna happen again." I don't even know that that's the answer.

[00:40:53] I think it's like, "This happened, this sucks. Here's what we're gonna do to do our best to make sure this doesn't happen again. And, you know, we understand your frustrations. Like here's what we're gonna do to make this better or right in this scenario." 

[00:41:04] Kathleen Booth: Right, or, or even, or even saying like, "This is awesome.

[00:41:08] Like we did these experiments, and they didn't produce the results we wanted, but it's awesome that we our experimenting and that we're learning, and everything we learn makes us better. And it's going to like quicken the pace to which we get to the outcome we're looking for." Like, that's really the mentality that works in any company and, and can work in an agency,

[00:41:29] but I think, again, it goes back to trust. Like if you don't have a good trusting relationship with your customer, you're gonna be terrified to walk in and tell them that something that you proposed didn't work. 

[00:41:39] Daniel Weiner: I saw a reframe of failure recently, I wanna say on TikTok, I can't remember who it was, but it was, "Uh, if I told you that you were 50 'noes' away from your first 'yes,'

[00:41:49] you would rush to failure like so much faster. You would want those 50 'noes'." You know, tomorrow versus like being scared to be told 'no' or scared of failure and stuff like that, which, uh, normally I take thought leadership like that with grain of salt, but I really like that truthfully of like all of these 'noes' is just leading to the next 'yes'

[00:42:08] and failure leads to success as well. 

[00:42:10] Kathleen Booth: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:42:12] Daniel Weiner: On the flip side, without mentioning anybody who did terrible, who's wronged you in their agency lies, can you think of a really negative experience you've had with agencies? And what made that so negative? I hate to say bad, but what made it so negative?

[00:42:25] Kathleen Booth: Oh yeah. I mean, uh, I would say, and, and all the negative experiences I've had have been with very well-meaning agency teams, but it usually came down to being sold a certain vision and then handed off to an execution team that wasn't capable of executing that vision and didn't have the strategic chops, and then not having access to whoever kind of initially sold it.

[00:42:52] So like, especially with smaller agencies often you're being sold by the founder and they tend to be really smart and really visionary and capable, but they don't execute. And so if you don't continuously have access to that person, or if they've checked out, then that can be bad. I would say also just, you know, execution teams that are junior

[00:43:13] and they're order takers, and they're they hand in work product that either hasn't been vetted or is just bad, right? Like, you know, they've checked the box. I've had a lot of that where like, I'll get email copy back and be like, "This sounds terrible. I'm just gonna have to rewrite the whole thing." You know?

[00:43:34] "Why am I bothering? It's somebody junior, they don't really understand my business. They're not really trying to understand my business. They're just getting the work done." 

[00:43:44] Daniel Weiner: Do you think a bad agency experience can be salvaged or once it's kind of crossed into that portion, you think it's kind of reached the point of no return and you're, you're moving on mentally or by actually firing them?

[00:43:56] Kathleen Booth: I think it can be salvaged, but it, you get like one good shot at salvaging it, right? 

[00:44:00] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. 

[00:44:00] Kathleen Booth: Like, this is where as a client, your end of the deal is you have to be honest. Like if you're experiencing those things, you have to go to the person that sold you on this experience. Like the whether it's the founder, the salesperson, whoever sold you, you have to go to them and say, "Here's what I'm experiencing,

[00:44:17] and it's not working for me." And if an agency comes back and says, "Okay, we're gonna change the people assigned to your account," or, you know, there are different ways they can address these situations, but you get really one good shot at solving it. If it happens more than once, it becomes too much of a resource drain on the client

[00:44:35] and they're not gonna stick with you. 

[00:44:37] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. I think you get like half of a chance, truthfully, 'cause I think the clients are typically still like pretty still, "Is this really gonna get better?"

[00:44:43] No, I, it, I... 

[00:44:44] Kathleen Booth: Well, and it has to get better fast. 

[00:44:46] Daniel Weiner: Like the next day? 

[00:44:48] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:44:48] Daniel Weiner: Or I think they've probably moved on.

[00:44:50] Yeah. We talked about how with now your new challenge at Pavilion, just the breadth of the internet and marketing in general, what are you most bullish on in the marketing space at the moment? I mean, there's so much stuff going on, NFTs, Metaverses all their age these days, in-person events, or I think back to a certain degree,

[00:45:10] um, what are you most pumped about? 

[00:45:12] Kathleen Booth: I mean, for me, it does all come down to community, which is why I was so excited to work at Pavilion and putting community at the foundation of everything you do. I feel like the brands that understand that are really thriving. And that's what's powered all of Pavilion's growth.

[00:45:29] The other thing that I'm super excited about, and this is a little selfish, but I'm gonna mention it is Pavilions founder, Sam Jacobs, has written a book called "Kind Folks Finish First." And this is one of the big reasons I, I wanted to work there because the whole idea is that there is another way of doing business, which is about having a give-first mentality and helping people and not being cutthroat.

[00:45:53] And I think that this applies with, with everything. It filters down into marketing and it's why the companies that have the most loved brands are the ones that are the most helpful, the most altruistic, the most kind of giving of themselves, whether that manifests itself as having amazing educational content, where they share all their secrets, right?

[00:46:15] Like I can't stand when I hear companies say, "But that's our secret sauce." And it's like, "No, these are the things that you need to share, right?" Like it's the companies that understand that the more you give, the more you get, that are gonna be the most successful. And so that's kind of why I'm excited to join Pavilion, 'cause I feel like that's really baked into the DNA of the organization, but also it's what we, as an organization are trying to evangelize and

[00:46:38] spread in the business world. And I feel like the more companies embrace this, the better it's going to be for customers. It makes for a better customer journey, but it also makes for a better employee experience. And that is a flywheel. So the happier your employees, the happier your customers, and, you know, that's, that's really what I'm excited about.

[00:46:56] Daniel Weiner: That's great. I've been in Pavilion for since the last day of 2019, right before COVID so coming up on three years. So I'm, uh, as a fan boy as much as the next person of, uh, what Pavilions got going on. And they've truthfully been, uh, when I joined at the end of 2019, and I was at an agency, I ended up starting what I do now in September of 2020.

[00:47:14] And I think I was like paranoid that I was gonna get kicked out of the group, and they were like super proactively, supportive of what I do and what was doing at the time and making sure I felt supported and had resources and stuff like that. So, yeah, they, uh, practice what they preach. 

[00:47:30] Kathleen Booth: Oh, that's great to hear.

[00:47:31] And I think it's really cool what you're doing. 'Cause it's, there's almost nobody out there who's serving as like a, a trusted third party in the agency, client space. And I feel like it's so needed. So, kudos to you.

[00:47:43] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. It's as much it's as much therapy as anything else, truthfully, feel it's, it's been honestly, truthfully I've never felt more like professionally rewarded,

[00:47:50] uh, just because of the amount of information. Like when I was at an agency, you know, there's the song and dance of brands not giving you much, or, you know, being flighty about their budget maybe, or COI. And, you know, that's part of like my intake process of getting to the root of like, what would actually make your life easier.

[00:48:05] Like, tell me everything. And for the most part, brands are super forthcoming, so it's been interesting to be there. On, on the therapy front, my last marketing focus question, what keeps you up at night, whether marketing or just business in general these days? 

[00:48:18] Kathleen Booth: Oh my goodness, that is a really good question.

[00:48:22] You know, I think it's really, it's brand affinity. I feel like if people love your brand, you will be successful, right? Building and maintaining that brand affinity is definitely an art form. There is no playbook for it. And it requires an entire organizations to be completely aligned, sales, marketing, customer success, product

[00:48:48] Kathleen Booth: everything has to be aligned around building a brand that people love. And it takes some courage. You know, it translates into how you talk publicly and the kinds of things you invest in. And, and what keeps me up at night is, is not having full organizations aligned around that kind of thing. I mean, I obviously joined Pavilion, so I feel like I'm in an organization that is, but those are the things that are not within my control as, as a head of marketing.

[00:49:14] You know, and so it comes down to what is the real culture of the company, and, and is it going to reinforce what I know to be the right way to go to market. 

[00:49:23] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, you talk about brand affinity. I think also too, like people underestimate, you know, it's often tied to like being a founder, like a small company and stuff like that, but also big companies. Like having a group of people who actually genuinely care about your success, wherever you are,

[00:49:38] is such a valuable thing. Like I talk a little bit about like a personal board of advisor, so to speak. And I launched an actual board of advisors, uh, earlier this year, which has been a catalyst, and I think change the trajectory of my own company, but just in general, like an easy way to approach business.

[00:49:55] I think which people forget is like, if you have people around you who genuinely wanna see you succeed and do well, there's nothing more powerful than that because they will at least give you a chance, and it will get you in rooms you're not supposed to be in. And I think groups like Pavilion kind of, you know, fast track that a little bit too, by providing a platform for folks to join and interact with people and network with, you know... I have a call with somebody through Pavilion in London in a week or two,

[00:50:20] I don't even know what it's about, but I would've never, you know, had that opportunity, had it not been for groups like that, that bring you together and having people who genuinely care about what I'm doing. 

[00:50:28] Kathleen Booth: It's so funny you say that because right before I got on this interview with you, I had a call with somebody from Sweden that I met through Pavilion, who heard me on a podcast with Sam Jacobs and was like, "I have some questions for you about the strategy you talked about."

[00:50:42] And I mean, this is a guy from Sweden, I would never otherwise had met him. And he just sent me a Slack in Pavilion, and we put some time on the calendar, and that's what I love about this whole community model is, you know, I now have a new friend in Sweden, and I learned as much from him as he did for me,

[00:50:59] and we're both better off for the conversation. And this is also how you and I met, so... 

[00:51:03] Daniel Weiner: It is, I think we should all go to Sweden as well. You, now you're at Pavilion, I think you should work in like a travel stipend for our members to travel internationally on Pavilions dime, so if you could get to working on that. 

[00:51:13] Uh, we...

[00:51:13] Kathleen Booth: I would love to figure that one out.

[00:51:16] Daniel Weiner: Perfect. 

[00:51:17] Uh, the last couple questions are totally random, but, uh, what was your very first job? 

[00:51:22] Kathleen Booth: Uh, my very first job, well, do you count babysitting or talking about...? 

[00:51:26] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, literally. Like my first job was working at a car wash illegally when I was 15. So yeah. 

[00:51:30] Kathleen Booth: Babysitting for sure. 

[00:51:32] Daniel Weiner: Do you think that prepared you at all

[00:51:33] for what you're doing now? Baby and marketing is a little bit like being an agent. Yeah, I think it actually, I feel... 

[00:51:39] Kathleen Booth: I'll be honest and say that I, I feel like all my early jobs, and I just said this to my 15-year-old son the other day, every one of them was an exercise in learning what I don't wanna do. I did not like babysitting.

[00:51:49] It was not fun. I didn't enjoy it. Uh, so it helped me get one step closer to figuring out the thing that I do wanna do. So I was a babysitter, I was a short order cook, I was an envelope stuffer in an office. I, I have done a lot of different jobs. I've been working since I was probably 13 years old. You gotta,

[00:52:06] you know, what is it? What's the phrase, "You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you meet the prince." I feel like that with work. 

[00:52:12] Daniel Weiner: That's a good parable to marketing too. That's why I think it's funny when, people are so disappointed when things fail, but I'm like, you just now, you know, that doesn't work and do a bunch of others.

[00:52:20] Don't be bad if you do it for like a year of stuff not working, and you just continue doing the same thing. 

[00:52:25] Kathleen Booth: Yeah. 

[00:52:25] Daniel Weiner: Uh, well, what, what would be your death row 

[00:52:27] meal? 

[00:52:28] Kathleen Booth: Oh, this one's easy. Uh, lobster roll with truffle French fries and a glass of really good rosé wine. 

[00:52:36] Daniel Weiner: Okay. From anywhere in particular? 

[00:52:39] There is a great lobster role place,

[00:52:41] Kathleen Booth: I mean, I forget the name of it, it's down on the Waterfront in Boston by the convention center. I used to go there every year when I would go to HubSpot's inbound conference. I can't remember the name, though. So... 

[00:52:51] Daniel Weiner: That could have been my first sponsor, Kathleen. I could have... 

[00:52:53] Kathleen Booth: It was so good. 

[00:52:55] Daniel Weiner: And then my final question, who inspires you?

[00:52:59] Kathleen Booth: Ugh, you know, there's a lot of people. I take a lot of inspiration from some other women. I, I wanna, I'll call out some women that I think are incredible. You know, my, my sort of celebrity inspiration is Sara Blakely from Spanx. I just think she's amazing. She built an unbelievable business, and she's super real.

[00:53:17] If you follow her on Instagram, she is the queen of the... yeah, Jesse Itzler. Like she's the queen of the no makeup selfie, like letting, letting you into her life. I think she's incredible. And then there are just are some women in my network, I'll, I'll mention a few that I met through Pavilion people like Lindsay Tjepkema who started Casted, um Sam Sales, Samantha, is a amazing. Um, Helen Baptist, who is the head of, she's actually this, I think the COO at PathFactory, but she heads up marketing sales and customer success.

[00:53:50] You know, there's just a ton of different women out there who I think are really killing it professionally, but also value having vibrant personal lives. And they're also really just upfront about the imperfection of it all. And they're they're givers and those are the kinds of people that I am tremendously inspired by.

[00:54:13] Daniel Weiner: I wanna be friends with Jesse and Sara, they live somewhere close to me in Atlanta, and I'm like, under the impression the universe is getting me like a step closer to them. I was hiking, like when was, uh, last year, I wanna say. And out of the blue, literally like in the middle of the woods, uh, they're still personal assistant, I believe.

[00:54:32] I think her name's Amanda, who I follow on Instagram as well was sitting there, and I was like, "I know that person's face." And like not to scare the shit outta somebody in the middle of the woods. I was like, "Are you who I think you are? Don't you own a company?"

[00:54:42] Daniel Weiner: And she does, called "You're Fucking Dope", which are like stickers

[00:54:45] she gives out, out of everything she does. She was like, "Oh my God, thank you so much." Like normally, everybody come up and ask me about like Jesse and Sara and the fact that you knew my name and stuff, I'm like, "Well, I still wanna be friends with them too, but I like what you're doing as well." 

[00:54:56] Kathleen Booth: So, I feel like you have to do that race in their backyard.

[00:54:59] What is it that like you run up and down the backyard a hundred times? 

[00:55:03] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, they have like the 29029. It's like the altitude of Everest and they do it at different places. They do that and a bunch of other stuff. So I just, I just wanna do a cold tub with them since Jesse's like a maniac with... 

[00:55:14] Kathleen Booth: I can't do that.

[00:55:15] I, I have met them in person though, because they spoke actually at Drifts' conference HYPERGROWTH, and I had a VIP ticket, and they did a meet-and-greet and I got to go into this room and like have my picture taken with the two of them. And I think I was able to say three words, and I probably sounded like, "I love you.

[00:55:35] You're awesome." 

[00:55:35] Daniel Weiner: I, I've heard, I've heard they, uh, are in person how they are via social, which I love and like to hear. I, I don't like, what's the thing like if don't ever meet your heroes? I, I don't, uh, I don't ever, right? 

[00:55:46] Kathleen Booth: No, they, they're super friendly. Yeah, super friendly and approachable. 

[00:55:51] Daniel Weiner: Awesome. Well, if you catch up with them recently, tell them there's somebody in Atlanta who wants to party with them.

[00:55:55] Kathleen Booth: So... I will. 

[00:55:56] Daniel Weiner: But no, this was wonderful. This was an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you, uh, spending time with me today, and congrats on the new role. I'm pumped to see you as a member and fan of Pavilion in general. I'm excited to see, uh, what's in store. 

[00:56:10] Kathleen Booth: Thank you. I'm excited too, and thanks for having me on.

[00:56:13] Daniel Weiner: Absolutely. I will talk to you soon.