[00:00:00] Leigh Chesley: So, I kind of handle it more as I think about interviewing an employee, and I want to understand, are you, do you have some humility? Do you understand that this is going to be a two-way partnership? Are you willing to work through that with us? 

[00:00:52] Daniel Weiner: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the YouShouldTalkTo Podcast. I am Daniel Weiner and this podcast is brought to you by myself, as well as YouShouldTalkTo, we're gonna get our big sponsor one of these days. YouShouldTalkTo pairs brands and marketers (for free) with vetted agencies and/or freelancers for pretty much any marketing or technique.

[00:01:10] Why? Because finding great agencies is a giant pain in the ass. I am super excited to be joined by, uh, a LinkedIn legend, a member of my board, Leigh Chesley, Chief Customer Officer at Longbow Advantage. Leigh, thank you so much for joining. 

[00:01:26] Leigh Chesley: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, and, uh, thanks for the awesome intro, I don't, hopefully, I can live up to that.

[00:01:32] Daniel Weiner: I was gonna say, where are you called in from today? You've been, uh, you're all over, uh, usually. Where are you right now? 

[00:01:37] Leigh Chesley: I am home in, uh, Nashville, just outside of Nashville today. So, it's a great day to be home. 

[00:01:43] Daniel Weiner: Nice. You've been traveling all over the place from what I understand, but outside of your travel, you've had some really interesting work experience over the years in partnerships, marketing. You now have the big fancy C-suite title. Give us the Cliff's notes. How'd you get here? 

[00:01:59] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, I was actually thinking about that the other day that my path seems like I've jumped into some different things over the course of my career. I think most of it is just I, um, as you know, I, I say yes to anything, so.

[00:02:12] Daniel Weiner: I, I do know that.

[00:02:14] Leigh Chesley: So, someone says, "Hey, you wanna try this new thing?" I tend to say yes without thinking about it, which most of the time works out pretty well, um, you can at least figure it out after the fact. And so, I think the reason at the end of the day, I've, I've really jumped around is I've never felt like I needed to have a defined career path,

[00:02:29] you know, I started out in marketing, and I knew I liked it, but I also knew that there's a lot of other flavors in the world that I'd want to try, and I never wanted to say, "You know what? I want to go CMO route." And I just wanted to learn a lot about different things. And so, I've just kind of said yes as different opportunities have popped up, and that's, I think, how I've gotten here today. 

[00:02:52] Daniel Weiner: And what's Longbow Advantage? Fill, fill us in on that. 

[00:02:55] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. We are a supply chain consulting and software company. So, what that actually means is we do consulting for warehouse logistics teams, folks who are buying warehouse management solutions will go in and, and help them implement or help them strategize or, or both.

[00:03:11] And then, we also have our own SaaS product that is warehouse visibility that kind of pulls together all of the data across all the platforms in the warehouse or multiple warehouses and, and provides real-time data and visibility to folks across the network. 

[00:03:27] Daniel Weiner: Nice. Sounds very fancy, and as chief customer officer, what's the biggest nuance in the title? I'd argue, like, most marketing roles should be customer focused, but is there any difference? I know you own marketing at some point, now you have that title. Is there, um, some nuance to it in terms of, like, ownership and what you're working on? 

[00:03:44] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, it's different than what most chief customer officer titles mean. And it was one of those situations where we kind of had some gaps in ownership at the company, and I was talking with my CEO and said, "You know, I'd love to take on X, Y, and Z." And he said, "Cool, great. Would love for you to do that. Tell me what we should call you." And so, what X, Y, and Z entails is essentially the entire customer journey outside of, like, core sales.

[00:04:11] So, my team's responsible for business development, marketing, success, support, and professional services. So, when we say customer experience, my team's responsible for the customer experience, it really is, end-to-end customer experience. And then, that sales enablement piece kind of pulls it all together.

[00:04:30] So, I would say that's the biggest nuance when you're thinking about, on the marketing side, the marketing team now has access to the customer and content and experience in ways that I personally, as a marketer, have never had before. And then, on the, on the, you know, customer team side, when you think about support and, and success and services and things like that, they have access to the marketing team

[00:04:55] where the marketing team typically, historically, has been very focused on net new revenue generation, which is a, like, could be a whole 'nother podcast on why I think that's maybe not the best practice. And so, 

[00:05:07] Daniel Weiner: You should start, you should start podcast, Leigh. 

[00:05:09] Leigh Chesley: I should, I, I have a lot to say on that. You could be my first guest.

[00:05:12] Daniel Weiner: Perfect. 

[00:05:13] And so, and so, they have access to the marketing team. So, when you think about expansion and retention and things like that, we're much more aligned than any other company I've ever been involved in before. 

[00:05:24] Daniel Weiner: That's fantastic. Not many people can say that and actually mean it, so that's good to hear.

[00:05:29] Leigh Chesley: Yeah.

[00:05:29] Daniel Weiner: Did it take some time to get there, I presume, in that sort of setup? 

[00:05:32] Leigh Chesley: It did and it didn't, I mean, being, you know, being the leader of, I call it the three pillars. So, my three pillars of my team are marketing, customer success and services. So, kind of being the leader that, that unifies those makes it really easy because there's li, there's no silos, right?

[00:05:49] Everyone has access to everyone. On the flip side, I think helping people across the teams understand what these resources that they now have access to can do to help them, you know, in their jobs, that's been, I would say, maybe the hardest thing to an extent, but, you know, we're a 20-year-old company, but we're very startup, I would say, minded when it comes to how we operate.

[00:06:12] And so, we've also moved quickly with getting processes into place and getting SOPs and, and communication, breaking down communication barriers. And so, we're about six, seven months into that journey, and I think we're at a good place, and I think in six more months, we'll be at a great place. 

[00:06:29] Daniel Weiner: Gotcha. And you've worked with some huge global brands, you've worked with smaller brands. What's your overall opinion on agencies? They get a bad rep sometimes. Are you, uh, in the love him or hate him camp, uh, overall if you had to pick? 

[00:06:42] Leigh Chesley: Well, I think they, I mean, they do, obviously, get a, get a bad rep sometimes, otherwise we wouldn't be here having this conversation, but I think, um, on the brand side, I think there needs to be some ownership in that conversation as well of did you pick the right agency? Did you lay out, you know, the right, the right goals? Did you talk clearly about maybe what some of the roadblocks the agencies gonna run into with your company are when you were first initiating that conversation?

[00:07:09] I think all of those things are really important, and I think it's easy a lot of times on the brand side to just point out what's going wrong and put the blame on the agency, but I'm a big believer with a vendor relationship, it's a two-way relationship, it's a two-way conversation. And so, I think we as, you know, the internal owner of that relationship have to take responsibility when, when something goes wrong.

[00:07:31] So, yes. Are there agencies out there who, you know, maybe you wouldn't recommend to a, to a colleague? Of, of course. But I don't think it's probably as, as often as marketers might like to say.

[00:07:44] Daniel Weiner: No, that's definitely fair. It's definitely a two-way street. I'd argue that also, like, the well, AI wouldn't have a company if, uh, there weren't bad agencies, but bad agencies make, uh, or bad experiences, I should say, make the good ones, uh, shine through even more and kind of make you realize how much better things can be.

[00:08:02] So, that's why I always encourage, even when people are in happy relationships, to revisit them and, you know, explore outside just to gain a different perspective of what's out there. 

[00:08:12] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, I mean, it, you, you never know what having another conversation is going to teach you about what you should be doing, how you should be thinking about things. So, I, I think that's great advice too.

[00:08:23] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. I ask everybody this question in an attempt to not trigger them, but are you getting hit up, like, every 12 seconds by vendors and agencies alike on LinkedIn, email, phone, or does it slow down a little in the, in the C-suite? 

[00:08:34] No, it hasn't slowed down. I hate to say this and, and my, you know, I talk to my biz dev team, and I'll send them examples of what not to do, and I, you know, I, I hate to say that, but we get hit up a ton and it's, I'm seeing a lot of tactics of, um, you know, we're on a journey, I would say with our digital, our digital strategy and we know that we have a lot of improving to do, we have a lot of opportunity. But I get a lot of emails where people will send their strategy is, "Hey, what you're doing sucks." And 

[00:09:05] Daniel Weiner: They tell you your baby, they tell your baby's ugly. 

[00:09:08] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, and, and let me tell you how I would do it better, and that's the first email you get, and it's, I've had that quite a few times in the last year, and it's just so off-putting, and I, I don't understand why people think that that tactic would work, but it must, at times, right?

[00:09:25] Daniel Weiner: I don't know, truthfully, I get hit up with so many things that sometimes I'm like, if they're still sending it, it must work, but I'm like, how does that work? Like, there's no way that anybody replied to that in a positive way. So, I don't know, I mean, I get such horrific outreach once I change my title to founder, I think everybody just assumes you're, like, spending millions of dollars or something like that, I'm not sure. So, uh, yeah, I get it just as much as everybody else, I imagine. 

[00:09:49] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. I had a, I had someone the other day tell me, and, and someone else got this LinkedIn message too 'cause we were having conversation, they said, "Oh my gosh, I got the same one" that said, um, I hadn't been responding to them on LinkedIn 'cause it was not great inbound, and they said, "If I wanted to be ignored, I would've stayed with my ex-girlfriend." Like, that was how the next message started.

[00:10:12] Daniel Weiner: And did you write back, I see, did you write back, "I see why they broke up with you."

[00:10:15] Leigh Chesley: I was really close to responding, and I was talking to someone in biz dev, and they said, "No, it's, it's a pattern, they're trying to get you to break outta your pattern, and actually respond. So, don't do it, like, don't take the bait."

[00:10:28] Daniel Weiner: Like, that's why. Yeah, I mean, uh, I feel like that's, uh, I try to, when I get stuff, I'm like, it's not this person, it's leadership, somebody told them to send this message, or this was okay, or this was approved. So, I try not to get too grumpy with folks. To that end, like, what's the biggest difference from taking the leap from VP to the C-suite?

[00:10:47] You know, talked to a lot of people about that, and it's typically, like, board and ownership and, and stuff like that. What have you seen being kind of the biggest, uh, change in your day-to-day? 

[00:10:58] Leigh Chesley: Well, I mean, I, yeah, there's, there's the obvious stuff of, I would say, more direct ownership towards revenue and goals and, and things like that,

[00:11:07] I think that kind of goes without saying. For me, the day-to-day difference has been, now, I am leading really strong directors, and I am leading folks who own very different areas of the business and, you know, who have teams ranging from, like, 6 to 20 people. And so, feeling at time somewhat disconnected from the day-to-day.

[00:11:34] Leigh Chesley: I've never been this far removed from what's happening just like in the weeds, and having to get comfortable with that has been really different knowing that, because they're strong leaders, they're not going to involve me in every meeting or every, you know, I'm not gonna be copied on every email.

[00:11:51] They're gonna throw a flag when they need something, which is exactly what they should be doing, right? And getting comfortable with kind of, I would say re, or changing the way we communicate, that's definitely been different. And then, you know, I know that with Pavilion, this is a, a big concept and something I've reframed probably a year and a half ago when I, when I joined, but the concept of first team where your first team is the executive leadership team.

[00:12:19] And yes, I, my job with my team is to break down barriers and overcommunicate and support and make sure that they can do their job, and that is, you know, that is what I'm doing every day, but, but my job really is accountability to the leadership team and accountability to the company in a different way.

[00:12:36] And so, kind of balancing and figuring those things out, just as, you know, this is my first time in a, in a C-suite role, so it's, all of those nuances are just extremely different. So, that has been the biggest change for me because in marketing, you know, you're always preparing board decks and, and thinking about board meetings if, even if you're involved or not, and you had revenue responsibility.

[00:12:58] And so, like, that was, you know, I think that I just transitioned into that pretty naturally, I think is the other things that the soft skills that you can't really prepare for that I've had to be really cognizant of, of how I'm responding to things and how I'm supporting my team differently now that I'm managing really, really strong senior leaders.

[00:13:17] Daniel Weiner: Sounds like self-awareness is a big, uh, a big skill required to do what you're doing. 

[00:13:22] Leigh Chesley: Let's hope I have it. I guess we'll find out, right?

[00:13:25] Daniel Weiner: I guess we'll have you on a, on for a follow-up, uh, if not, I imagine. Before finding me, of course, and now you would only use YouShouldTalkTo, but

[00:13:34] Leigh Chesley: Of course.

[00:13:34] Daniel Weiner: prior when you needed to outsource, where were you typically beginning your search when you needed vendor agency, anything? 

[00:13:43] Um, and you also mentioned Pavilion, uh, I had Kathleen Booth on recently, who's the new SVP of community there, or SVP of marketing there, and she had kind of a viral-ish post on LinkedIn that I really resonated with that community is the new Google, and no longer people really, at least starting their search on Google, is that the same for you? Can you talk a little about that? 

[00:14:02] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, absolutely. You know, am I gonna do my due diligence and google for, you know, if it were an agency and I wanted them specific to, we're a Canadian company if I wanted them specific to Montreal, am I gonna go and google and, and google agencies in Montreal and do some due diligence there?

[00:14:18] Yes, of course. But it is community, it's, you know, getting recommendations from previous colleagues, talking to people on my team, "Hey, have you, who have you worked with in the past that you really liked that you've had good experiences with?" 9 times out of 10, well, I would say probably 10 times outta 10.

[00:14:35] I'm gonna talk to those agencies before I'm gonna go find some random agency from Google. And then you get to the point that you ask for a recommendation. We all know how that works, they're gonna give you their favorite customer, they're gonna sing your praises, maybe they've been, you know, teed up to say certain things.

[00:14:51] So, I think I, I, I totally agree. I can't remember the last time I started a relationship with a vendor that wasn't recommended by somebody who had worked with them in the past. 

[00:15:04] Daniel Weiner: That's why I think it's so funny that people talk about dark social, like, it's like this, well, I don't know, maybe controversial or unpopular. It's like this new thing, I'm like, I mean, it's been going on for, you just put a name on it, like, it's been around. 

[00:15:16] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. It makes it sound kind of like Marvel superhero-ish, I think, like, oh, people are doing dark social, it's like, isn't that just, was that social selling seven years ago is like

[00:15:27] Daniel Weiner: Just word of mouth, like 

[00:15:28] Leigh Chesley: Yeah.

[00:15:28] Daniel Weiner: I don't know if we can, need to call it that. You also talk too, I think it's hysterical, I've been working on a post about this for LinkedIn that I couldn't think of how to say it in like a non-asshole way, but like when you ask, I just think it's funny, like, when you ask any vendor for references, you're wasting your time.

[00:15:46] Like, what are they gonna do? Send you the people who have terrible things to say about them, of course, they're rightfully so teeing up to those people, "Hey, this person's gonna call you and talk to you and, like, it'd be great if you touched on these three very specific things." There's definitely a better way of, like, backtracking stuff.

[00:16:01] But yeah, I just think it's, I, I do have several companies who, like, after I make introduction, I don't think it's a bad thing, but I guess I just dunno what they expect to hear that's gonna, like, what could somebody say or would they say that they'd be like, "Oh, God, we, we're never gonna work with them now." Um, when they're getting it from the agency, so. 

[00:16:17] Leigh Chesley: I guess the only, the only red flag would be if you can't give me a reference, that would be telling, right?

[00:16:25] Daniel Weiner: That would be weird, yeah, that would be a good reason to not hire someone. You can't, if they can't come up with one, that's definitely a red flag.

[00:16:31] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. Which stinks for newer agencies, but that's kind of the way it is, I guess. 

[00:16:34] Daniel Weiner: There's always a way to fudge those things or always got some sort of, uh, person they can send somebody, send 'em your mom, send 'em a family member, they'll, uh, they'll say nice things about you. When you're having those conversations, what are you typically looking for from an agency or a vendor? What's important to you? 

[00:16:51] Leigh Chesley: Communication. So, I'm gonna ask questions around, yes, I'll ask questions around their capabilities and the folks that they have on the team and, you know, things like that, kind of your standard, standard questions, right? I think some of those can kind of be bullshit, too.

[00:17:05] Like, you're gonna, hey, if I'm looking and I'm like super interested in ABM, you're gonna tell me that you have a team of ABM rock stars. If community's really important, we're gonna focus on that. So, I, I think, you know, that's kind of fluff too, but I'm gonna ask about communication if we hit a roadblock 'cause we're probably gonna have something we don't agree on, or I'm, you know, how are you going to handle that?

[00:17:27] Tell me about a brand that you lost. What went wrong there? So, I kind of handle it more as I think about interviewing an employee, and I want to understand are you, do you have some humility? Do you understand that this is going to be a two-way partnership? Are you willing to work through that with us?

[00:17:44] Leigh Chesley: Because I'm gonna respectfully tell you if, if something didn't go the way that, that we feel like it should have because I want to have that conversation, I want longevity in, in a partnership. So, is it the kind of culture that thrives in those sorts of relationship, or is it a culture that's, like, super scrappy and building really quickly and just kind of needs to get things done and maybe they're, they're seeing more attrition, or they don't, you know, they haven't built up great relationships?

[00:18:07] I think those are the things that are more telltale because in my experience, if, if I've worked with a great agency and we're trying to pivot our strategy, and maybe they don't have the right people to support it, like, they've gone out and hired people, right? Like, you can fix a lot of problems, I think one of the only ones you can't fix is the culture of how you're working together. 

[00:18:26] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, that's actually an excellent question to ask, and if I would say it's a red flag, if you ask, tell me about, like, a negative situation you've had with a client and how it went, and they said, "Oh, we've never had a negative situation with a client," or something like that.

[00:18:38] I'd argue that's a red flag, but no, I mean, you, you hit the nail in the head, I think, like, one of my more hot takes is, you know, the work doesn't matter, and what I mean by that is you don't get to do the work if you don't do the stuff up front in terms of, like, communication and relationship really well.

[00:18:53] So, even if you, even though a piece of me dies, everyone says, every time someone says rockstar, say you have, let's just assume you've got the smartest, most capable team in the world, if you suck at communication or you suck at presenting yourselves and, like, digging in and answering the questions that are important to the client,

[00:19:09] you don't get to do any of that stuff and showcase the, the brilliant people on your side, and I think a lot of agencies forget the business they're in a little bit sometimes, which is relationships, uh, you as a product effect get to do the work at the end of the day of what you specialize in, I'd say.

[00:19:26] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, I mean, I, I actually posted, this is really nice not to plug my own LinkedIn, but I

[00:19:31] Daniel Weiner: Plug it, plug it, lady. 

[00:19:33] Leigh Chesley: I don't, I have zero strategy. I'm not looking for followers, but I posted something on, um, on LinkedIn over the weekend about how my family and I were in Universal Orlando last week, and we, we did a VIP behind-the-scenes tour, and it's not a private tour, so you're paired with, like, three other families, three, you know, how, whatever it, whatever makes 12, right?

[00:19:53] You're paired with those people, and we ended up with people aged eight years old to probably in their sixties, and everyone wanted to do different things, right? Like, we're, you know, me and my husband in our thirties, we have a 16-year-old son, like, we're wanting to get on the Velociraptor and Hagrid and Hulk and all these things.

[00:20:10] And these eight-year-olds are like, "Can we get on minions?" Right? And our guide had his work cut out for him, and in the beginning, he basically said, "I get that you all want, like, x experience. I wanna make that happen for you. That's my primary goal. You're not all going to get to do everything that you want to do, but here's what I will do.

[00:20:28] I will make sure we do X, Y, and Z. I will tell you how to come back around later or tomorrow or whatever and, like, give you the hacks on how to do the things that we didn't get to. I'll communicate, like, early and often." And, like, he set the stage for the experience, he set the right expectations, he did an awesome job.

[00:20:48] I don't think anyone got to do everything they wanted, and we, again, we paid a good bit of money for this, right? We all left, like, 10 outta, 12 outta 10, like, this was the best experience ever, it was about communication, and that's really what it all boiled down to, and I think it was just such a great example for had he communicated poorly and set the wrong expectations, we all, all would've had a horrible day.

[00:21:12] Daniel Weiner: Maybe Disney will sponsor this, uh, after this conversation. Wouldn't that, wouldn't that be nice?

[00:21:17] Leigh Chesley: Maybe I'll get a call from someone down in Orlando wanting, like, to sponsor me, that'd be great. 

[00:21:21] Daniel Weiner: I was gonna say, steal the thunder, I, I hope you get a million followers after this, uh, after this podcast. I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID, of mostly bigger brands, um, it was kind of, I think, already there with smaller brands, but bigger brands moving towards smaller independent agencies that are specialized in, like, one to three things, but more, like, one to two, I would say. 

[00:21:44] What do you think of that? Regardless of where you're at, are you looking more for, like, specialization? Do you, you know, have an opinion of, like, a full-service quote, unquote agency? 

[00:21:54] I would say I'm in that camp, in my experience, I mean, I'm sure they're out there, but I've not had great luck finding agencies that are great at everything. And I think it can sound wonderful to have one agency you go to and have to communicate, you know, strategy one time, or, you know, one time a week or whatever that cadence looks like,

[00:22:14] Leigh Chesley: I think it sounds like the fairytale. But I think something always suffers, like, maybe they started as a PR agency and then added digital or added content or, or started as digital and then brought on, like, other, other aspects. And I have found if you have the bandwidth and the budget to maybe get

[00:22:34] two agencies and split up digital and PR, for example, or split, like, think about, like, the couple of it, two or three things that are really important, and you can split that up. I think you get more of a specialized focus, and you get people who, that's what they do, they're not trying to diversify their skillset,

[00:22:55] they're super interested in doing, you know, those things. You have to be super organized and be willing to manage all of those relationships, and you have to have great communication. I think that has to be part of the brand's culture is communication and treating agencies like partners

[00:23:10] if you're going to have that many relationships you're managing because otherwise, I do think something will drop, but if you can do it, I have seen more success going with, I would say two, my size company, like, two agencies who specialize in, in, and, you know, the things that are really strategic for you.

[00:23:30] I've seen at larger brands that I've been at where, like, I've gone in, I've said, " This is too many. Like, we, we need, we're worth," somebody told us we needed to spend a certain amount of money. And so, we've gone and figured out how to spend that amount of money, and it, it's, doesn't make sense, and it's not strategic.

[00:23:47] Leigh Chesley: Um, so, I think you do have to find the right balance for the organization, but I, my experience has been that I, that's kind of the way that I would go. 

[00:23:55] Daniel Weiner: Sure. I also find it's not, uh, I have no data or science to back this up, but more, uh, qualitative, I would say, smaller, independent agencies are just hungrier and, like, more, um, from a communication standpoint, just from an inherent flexibility standpoint, it's also easier for them to be flexible, and I find, like, the biggest disconnect, God, we keep referencing our LinkedIn post, we've, we're depressingly, this sucks.

[00:24:22] Leigh Chesley: We really need a hobby. 

[00:24:24] Daniel Weiner: I was gonna say, I talked about the other day though, like, I think the weird part of agencies and client relationships is they start out on the wrong foot because typically what I see is, the biggest thing that a brand wants, somebody who's a CMO, VP of marketing, marketing leader, they want an inherent level of flexibility, they wanna say, "Hey, like, you know, we want to spend roughly this, but, like, I need to be able to move things around, and I need some level of flexibility to change, and every time I call you as something you're not, a, a cash register isn't rigging." 

[00:24:52] Agencies on the flip side, while they say, "Yeah, like, we'll be flexible." What they really want is the exact same scope, exact same hours every single month, rightly so, 'cause it's easier for them to staff, you know, just easier for them to, like, do a high

[00:25:05] level of work when they know what's coming down the pipe, but it doesn't work, and there needs to be some sort of middle ground met, and I think the agencies and the brands that discuss that on the front end are usually more successful, but I feel a lot of people are, like, afraid to talk about that on the front end.

[00:25:19] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, and somebody asked me the other day, "What's something you wish an agency knew?" And I said, "Keep in mind I own services. So, I have a billable team, so maybe I'm coming at this from, like, a different perspective, but if I ask you to do something or we scope out the next month or quarter or whatever, and it's out of scope even by 10, 20 hours, I don't care what it is, just tell me and let me pay you, like, I don't want, like."

[00:25:47] Daniel Weiner: Young, the young, nobody says that, Leigh. 

[00:25:50] Leigh Chesley: Well, because here's the thing, it goes back to it's a relationship, and it's communication, and if I'm constantly asking you to go 10 hours over scope, then at some point you're gonna get frustrated, and we're going to have a conversation, but if you've never told me, I'm gonna feel like that's coming out of left field, right? 

[00:26:10] So, I just want, and even if, you know, an agency comes to me and says, "Hey, you know what? We've been a partner for two years. I just want you to know this is about 10 hours out of scope, whatever it is, it's outta scope, we're gonna do it this time, but just so your expectation is that next time if the project is this large, we are gonna go, have to go back and get another statement of work or get another PO or whatever."

[00:26:32] I would much rather someone say that to me than just eat it over and over, and then next thing you know, like, they're super frustrated with us, and we have no idea why. 

[00:26:42] Daniel Weiner: Would you like my unpopular, uh, opinion to that question of being on the other side of the agency? 

[00:26:46] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, I would love it.

[00:26:49] Daniel Weiner: It's such a nuance, like, I think that's what makes account people and agency people who are just dealing in client services the best 'cause there's that nuance of bringing it up without sounding like you're just, you know, there to charge them even though you kind of are 'cause, again, it's a business, but you want to maintain the relationship.

[00:27:07] If in a perfect world, I would love that to come from you to say, not like you're dying to be charged more, but I'd say like, "Hey, like, it looks like we're going over, like, you know, I know this is the first time or something like that, like, if this becomes consistent, let's chat about it and, like, figure out the way to do it."

[00:27:24] Which, again, in a perfect world, from your side, like, you just said, the agency, we bring that up, I think the takeaway from both is, like, the most important thing is knowing your customer and knowing who you are talking to and what they want. I can vividly remember towards the end of my, uh, tenure at my agency, I think the words were, if Danny brings up price again, we're done, or something like that,

[00:27:47] or us going out of scope, or us going out of scope, we're done, and I was like, "Well, what am I supposed to do?" Because everything is out of scope, like, we've never talked about any of these things, you know, which that's the more, like, egregious, you know, end of the spectrum, but yeah, it's definitely a, a song and dance.

[00:28:03] Uh, I'm with you, I think it should be brought up as early as humanly possible 'cause, again, what you don't want is if you, you know, ask to, like, renew and they're like, "Oh, the price is double." You're like, "What? Why is it double?" You know?

[00:28:14] Leigh Chesley: Or you're like, you know, have you guys been sitting around in the break room complaining about what a horrible customer we are? And I thought that everything was great, 'cause that sounds not fun on my side either, right? 

[00:28:24] Daniel Weiner: At, at some point, everybody at an agency is complaining about something, so.

[00:28:28] Fair enough, fair enough. 

[00:28:29] Daniel Weiner: Probably, I'd be surprised if you were the least favorite customer, really though, you're super fun to deal with, so you can't be their least favorite.

[00:28:35] Leigh Chesley: There you go. I like to stay in the middle, right? 

[00:28:38] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You wanna be Switzerland, very neutral, like me. On the positive side, we'll do the positive first, can you think of a really great agency experience that you've had in the past and what made it so great, more the, you know, communication and relationship stuff, the work that we discussed? Uh, what was it for you? 

[00:28:54] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, I think it was, this agency knew probably my business and not just the business and the market, like, they knew that really, really well, you could tell they had gone out and not just relied on us to provide them with education and research and enablement, but they had gone out and done a ton of research on the market and our competitors, and at times 

[00:29:15] Daniel Weiner: Were you, your son?

[00:29:16] Leigh Chesley: What? 

[00:29:17] Daniel Weiner: Before you were engaged, your son? 

[00:29:19] Definitely, they had done some research before we were engaged, but then as we got going, it was clear, like, I'd say things like, "Oh, competitors," and they go, "Oh, and that's X, Y, and Z." Like, it was like they just, they were ready, they knew it, and ongoing as things were going on, like, they're sending us articles about things that are happening that,

[00:29:35] Leigh Chesley: like, my product marketing person hadn't even, you know, hadn't even found yet, so, or hadn't even, hadn't shared yet. They knew the market, but they also knew the business really well. So, in this situation, I had marketing managers that were responsible for different lines of business, and we had a very, I would say, account-based marketing focus at this organization.

[00:29:55] And so, it was expected that if the head of sales came by and said, "Hey, what's going on with X prospect?" So, that marketing manager, like, could pull it up and say, "This is where they've gone, this is what they've done, here's who we're talking to, these are the campaigns they're in." And almost build that customer journey, like, off the top of their head, right?

[00:30:12] 'Cause we had, call it 10 target accounts. I mean, that's also just when you think about a marketing manager, like, yes, that's super important, but also, you know, they're running campaigns, they're putting together events, they're doing a lot of other things too, and, and there would be times that we would email the agency and say, "Hey, can you send me the customer journey on X prospect?"

[00:30:30] And we would get an email back in 15 minutes, like, boom, here's where it is, here are the people, like, they knew our funnel, like I said, almost better than the marketing managers did, which was, you could debate good or bad, but it took mind share and bandwidth off of my marketing managers and freed them up to do the things that agency couldn't do, like, internal management and things like that.

[00:30:51] So, like, just the fact that they were willing to know where they could add value that was more, I would say, soft skill value, not in scope, unfortunately, but like, they were finding ways to continue to add value and understood where we had gaps, and I never asked them to do that, like, they just said, you know, "Hey, we feel like there's some gaps in reporting,

[00:31:13] we're gonna build that out because we wanna make sure that we're continuously adding value. Can we meet with your ops team? Like, we wanna understand how we can, you know, pull in the data." And just continually innovating and wanting to get involved in the business and wanting to, to understand and ingrain themselves in our business.

[00:31:30] I don't think I ever, and this is contradictory to what we just said, but I don't think I ever had a negative conversation about scope or pricing or, you know, there were times where they would come to us maybe and say, "Hey, we feel like we should do X, Y, and Z. That means that A, B and C might fall, but I really feel like that's more strategic for you.

[00:31:51] So, I'm recommending we change scope and just do this instead." And it's like, okay, I mean, like, super easy conversation, right? So, I mean, that was hands down the best agency relationship ever had 'cause they just, it was the younger scrappy agency situation, like you just talked about where they just wanted to make sure they were a true partner and doing a great job for our business. 

[00:32:14] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, and it's, I mean, truthfully, I don't even think it's bad to say, like, if you're a younger, newer agency or scraper, like, presumably your account means more financially as well, and rightly so, that they do those sorts of things. So, that's great to hear.

[00:32:26] It's, uh, which you said at the end about like, they, you know, redid the scope a little to make it, uh, and you just said, "Yeah, sure." That's important, too, like, making things easy to say yes. In sales in general, I would say, but especially for agency stuff, like, you know, we talked about that all the time, like, what can we do just to make it so easy for them to just say yes, like that there's not really any other option.

[00:32:47] Like, why wouldn't they say yes, you know, and sometimes that's easier said than done, but, uh, I'd say like overall in sales in general, like, people complicate stuff so much where there's so many different options and nuances, like, give them a way to say yes right then, even if it's something smaller than you want to do, you know, money and motion stays in motion, all that sort of stuff. 

[00:33:05] Leigh Chesley: And if you know their business, that's so much easier to do. 

[00:33:08] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I definitely agree. It's also harder to fire you if you're deeper, more deeply ingratiated in the business as well. 

[00:33:14] Leigh Chesley: Yes, it is.

[00:33:17] Daniel Weiner: Uh, let's talk some shit now, Leigh, uh, on the flip side, negative agency experience, which I'm sure you've had, and what made it so negative?

[00:33:26] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. This one was much earlier in my career, we hired one of the agencies that, like, you never get fired for hiring, and 

[00:33:34] Daniel Weiner: IBM, the IBM conundrum.

[00:33:36] Leigh Chesley: Yes. And we had, there are a lot of reasons for why we did it, probably internal political reasons and things like that, and it was, I mean, every time we turned her, every single month, "Oh, scope's gotta increase.

[00:33:51] Oh, we're not, we're not getting the results, so your budget needs to increase." And let me tell you, we weren't spending a little bit of money because you can't hire one of those agencies and spend a little bit of money, right? It just got to the point where in the beginning, the, like, global leadership was so on board with this relationship 'cause it was a big name, and they were gonna do great things for us.

[00:34:14] And it became very, I call it, like, they were the "to die" agency where, like, they would go off in a corner, put together campaigns, put together stuff, not wanna talk to us about it, and then they, we'd show up to a meeting and, and they'd like, "Ta-da, here's what we did for you." And you're going, "We didn't ask for any of that.

[00:34:31] Like, it's, it's not our message, it's not aligned with our strategy, why, and now I have to pay you for that." And, and it was just, it was so misaligned, and there was such a lack of communication and, and it was one of my only experiences dealing with an agency of that size, but it felt very much just corporate.

[00:34:51] Like, we're gonna go, the expectation is we go do the work, and we present it out to you, and then you're gonna be very happy about what we did 'cause we're all super smart, so clearly you're gonna trust that we know what we're doing. And it, it just didn't feel like a partnership, it felt very disconnected, and we spent a ton of money and eventually just totally cut off that relationship and brought everything in-house because the larger powers that b had lost all faith and in external agencies because

[00:35:19] if, if the big name can't do it right, right, then, like, how could anybody else, was kind of how it played out internally. And my internal team ended up having to take everything on, and it was just, it was a bad situation I think, for everybody involved. 

[00:35:34] Daniel Weiner: It's funny that you brought up the, you know, an agency that you, uh, don't get fired for hiring, essentially.

[00:35:40] I'm actually helping currently a quote, unquote big brand, and one of the agencies that I presented, I was like, "Hey, like, I don't think that," it was like I, they're definitely capable and qualified, but like, they're doing some, like, out of bound shit, you know, like this is an agency that you'd probably like, again, I wouldn't recommend it, but I didn't think it was wildly capable,

[00:36:04] Daniel Weiner: but like, you'd have to sell this internally, and the quote I got from them after was like, "You were totally right." Like, I think they are the future, I don't think I could, like, hire them without fearing for my job, like, I think my bosses may, like, be like, "What is going on over there? Like, that's too risky."

[00:36:18] And to your point, like, I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, like, there's pros and cons, but like, sometimes it is the right decision, even if it goes south, I think, to hire, like, the safe answer some, you know, I tell that to agencies a lot too, like, knowing your audience is important, like, sometimes some brands aren't ready for cool stuff or nor do they need it, and the people on the other side are people as well trying to keep their jobs, all that sort of stuff.

[00:36:42] I think LinkedIn, not to keep bringing up LinkedIn, changed it as well, like, you have all of these people, agencies, vendors who are great at content, and it kind of gives you like that false sense of security a little like, "Oh, well, if they're so good at content and I'm seeing them, and they seem smart, they're, like, surely, like, they're wonderful practitioners at what they're doing," and all of that sort of stuff.

[00:37:03] Daniel Weiner: It's just not the case, sadly. I, I, you know, there's several, um, agencies and vendors I've heard, again, I know there's two sides to every story, but like, just being that agency that, like, people talk about and say, "Oh, you gotta hire them," and stuff like that does not equate to a good working relationship for everyone.

[00:37:19] It's kind of why the, the tag on I've been using is, "Finding an agency is easy, finding the right agency is hard." And I think that's kind of like one of the, one of the reasons for it, social media has, uh, made everybody a celebrity. 

[00:37:30] I totally agree, and I think you hit the nail on the head. Some brands not only do they not want to, but they, they shouldn't be innovative, right? Like, depending on the market that you're in, depending on your buyer, yeah, it's great, you know, I'm in supply chain, there's a supply chain company who, they use shock in their advertising, I mean, it reminds me of some of the Silicon Valley advertising that I feel like we were seeing 10 years ago where people are like throwing f-bombs in there,

[00:37:58] Leigh Chesley: and just, and every time I see it, like, so they're on these small, like, niche trade show floors with these banners, and every time I see it, I just think, I don't know that you know your audience, like, it stops, I remember the brand, don't get me wrong, but supply chain's a pretty old school market,

[00:38:17] it's becoming, everyone ever, the whole joke and supply chain is like, it's become sexy again. I'm like, uh, I mean, it's become talked about, like, for sure. But, you know, if an agency came to me and pitched something that was totally just wildly out of line with where I think the market is, is prepared for where, where people, how the people in the market talk and, and things like that, that would be such a turnoff for me

[00:38:40] Leigh Chesley: 'cause it would just tell me that they care way more about big flashy, bold campaigns than they do about, like, actually understanding the market and driving results, whether it looks and feels cool or not. 

[00:38:55] Daniel Weiner: Sure. Do you think that negative agency experience can be, it sounds like the one that you described, probably not, but like overall, do you think a negative agency experience can be salvaged?

[00:39:06] Leigh Chesley: I, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, I mean, I think it goes back to communication, like, do you have a person at the agency, normally I feel like there's one person who, like, the brand relationship owner has that you can pick up the phone and just say, "Can we just have an open conversation?

[00:39:21] 'Cause we are super sideways, and I don't wanna start over, hopefully, you don't wanna lose our business, but if you do, like, that's fine too, but can we just have a conversation about what's going on here?" And if you can do that, I mean, it's like any other relationship, like, if you can have that conversation and you can get it back to a good place, and

[00:39:39] I've had instances with, with agencies that I've had for years at a time, and then, like, you get the wrong account manager because somebody left, and they put the junior person in there and, like, I've had to pick up the phone and just say, "I hate to tell you this, but like, we're not super happy, and I'm gonna give it three months and here are the things that I need to change

[00:39:56] Leigh Chesley: and, you know, it's." But you've gotta be willing to have that conversation, and if not, then you're gonna be churning through agencies every 6 to 12 months, and you're never gonna get any traction 'cause you're always, no relationship's gonna be perfect, and if you're not willing to communicate and have a conversation about it, then I don't see how you can have longevity and have a true partner.

[00:40:17] Daniel Weiner: Starting to think it's the way I ask, I'm hoping it's a trend, I'm starting to think it's the way I ask the question, uh, not a single person when we talk about negative agency experiences, doesn't reference the actual work, it's always communication, misaligned expectation, there have been mentions of, like, yeah, like, you know, sometimes you don't get, like, the greatest work, but again, like most, most of the people have said, like, I would take mediocre-ish work,

[00:40:42] like, again, everybody wants like, perfection, but I would, it's more speed, like, I want fast and mediocre, over slow and perfect, like, every day

[00:40:52] Leigh Chesley: Interesting. Do you think that is because you're working with brands that are more startup minded, and they just expect fast? 

[00:41:02] I work with brands of all shapes and sizes lately. I find brands that are bigger slower themselves. It depends, like, I've, uh, I guess I could announce it here since I'm interviewing them. Like, I helped Yamaha recently, so 

[00:41:15] Leigh Chesley: Oh, cool. 

[00:41:16] Daniel Weiner: yeah, and, you know, a brand like that, I think, you know, when you start talking about things like that, that like you mentioned to most people and they've heard of, there's a different expectation for work.

[00:41:26] And I would say rightly so, it's gonna be more widely viewed potentially. I just helped Hitachi as well, like, same type of deal, you know, if you're Hitachi, like, you're a global, you know, brand, there's more ramifications if work sucks. For a midtier company, a lot of these things, I think it's just you have to get stuff out in the market,

[00:41:44] and again, like, it needs to make your life easier. If you need to build a website, for example, yeah, you don't want the website to look like shit, a hundred percent, you want it to look gorgeous, you wanna get everything you want, but again, like, you can always iterate down the road. So, to get something that's a good, like, even at my old agency, we did a lot of big website work.

[00:42:01] Like, we did the Waffle House website, which was many, many years of work, truthfully. At the end of the big, long projects, I don't think anybody, like, where it was super happy at the end. Anybody was like, "Wow, this website is so gorgeous." It was like, "Oh my God, thank you for getting us through this obscene process.

[00:42:16] Like, can we go have a drink?" You know, it wasn't like, "Wow, that, uh, that nutrition calculator's incredible." You know, like, nobody references that, it's more like, "Did I make your life easier?" Like, "Yeah, like, when that thing happened and you, I called you Friday at five o'clock, and you answered, you saved my weekend."

[00:42:32] You know, stuff like that. So, I think it's more the person I'm dealing with, depends on their expectation, but now it's just very rare, even the few conversations where people have mentioned it, it's like you can correct bad work, you know, you can give feedback, and say like, "Oh, this wasn't on brand because of X, Y, and Z."

[00:42:49] And of course, if it happens way down the road, that sucks, somewhat to be expected, you know, at the beginning, but it's really hard to correct just a bad relationship once that seed of doubt has been sewed, essentially.

[00:43:02] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:04] What you talked about that, uh, your industry is sexy again, which is interesting to hear, uh, well, let's go with that. What are you most bullish on in marketing in general? I assume we're not gonna see Longbow doing TikTok dances anytime soon, but we've got NFTs, we've got the Metaverse, we've got, uh, in-person events, I presume are, like, fully-ish back. What are you most excited about?

[00:43:28] Um, you won't see me doing TikTok dances 'cause I don't even have TikTok, 

[00:43:31] Daniel Weiner: Not yet, Leigh, don't, don't say never. 

[00:43:33] Leigh Chesley: I, I don't, I don't even have TikTok, I don't, but if my team said they wanted to do it, I feel like there's probably a void in supply chain on TikTok, maybe we could take it over, I'd be totally open to that.

[00:43:45] Daniel Weiner: You're gonna get 20 TikTok agencies sending you LinkedIn messages once this is released.

[00:43:50] Leigh Chesley: Don't message me, I will message you. So, but I think there's a few things, in-person events have been awesome for us. We started back in the spring of this year and hit them super hard, my team was on the road for about three months straight.

[00:44:04] Bless them. And they were wonderful for us. I think people are excited to be back in person just talking to people, it's been awesome to see that, I'm sure you're, you hear that all the time. I'll go back to community, there is, and it depends on, you don't have to define, I mean, it doesn't have to be, maybe it is structured, maybe it isn't,

[00:44:20] Leigh Chesley: I think you figure out how you define community, but for us it's customers and really building around our customers, we launched a customer advisory board, we're gonna do some, like, we, we, we had our first customer advisory board meeting with our user conference two weeks ago. So, we're, we're gonna do some cool stuff around, like, building that out and really, I think empowering our customers to get to know each other better.

[00:44:43] 'Cause that's where we see, like, the sauce kind of really, really gets made. And then, I think it's, when you think about marketing, I am very bullish on that should be synonymous with the customer, and I probably get in trouble with my, my sales team all the time on this, but like, to an extent, I don't give a shit about net new revenue generation, from a marketing perspective. 

[00:45:06] Daniel Weiner: Now we're, now we're talking, I'll have, I'll make sure they clip this for sure. 

[00:45:09] Leigh Chesley: Yeah, send it, send it to my, send it to my sales team. No, I mean, it's important, right? But if you're doing all of the things that marketing should be doing, then that should kind of take care of itself, is my philosophy on net new revenue generation.

[00:45:24] If you're putting out great content, if you're empowering your customers, if you're creating word of mouth, if you're taking care of your customers, if you're expanding customer revenue, if you're doing all of these other things, if you're showing up at events, if you're, if you've got great PR engine, if you're working with analysts, which I know people are, like, shitting on analysts recently, but like, I will truly believe if you're doing all of the things that marketing should be doing, and in which most 50% of that should be centered on understanding and empowering customers,

[00:45:53] then revenue, net new revenue generation will take care of itself, and you can do ABM, whatever your, that strategy is, like, you can do net new ABM, so much easier if you're doing all of the other stuff. So, I am bullish on seeing this pendulum with marketing swing from owning a net new pipeline or revenue number to just having a seat at the strategy table.

[00:46:20] And I say strategy, not revenue, because I think it's, it does come back to revenue, right? When you're talking about customer retention and expansion and those sorts of things, but it's just overall business strategy and marketing has got to be looked at outside of just this stupid HubSpot funnel that we put ourselves in.

[00:46:39] Daniel Weiner: I 1000% agree. The only thing I think that, again, not to be a pessimist, that I think it just won't get there is because, and I'll use myself as an example, what you just described makes a million percent sense, every company should do it, however, is long, you can only do it if you think long term versus short term, uh, long term wins and sustainability and, you know, just being consistent truthfully,

[00:47:03] myself as an example, I can inherently just do things differently, thinking long term because I don't have a board, I don't have employees, I don't, you know, I can do these things, this podcast is an example of this, I'm giving it, you know, a year and I'll probably do a more to, like, see what happens. And I, you know, don't have, like, KPIs on it, so to speak, but like, when you get into investors and things like that, like, even when I see, like, salespeople doing shitty sales, things that we talked about, somebody's making 'em do it to reach some arbitrary-ish number.

[00:47:35] I know numbers matter, but like, if you think long term, yeah, a lot of these things do, but when you think in terms of the quarter and, you know, the end of a fiscal year and stuff like that, it's just really impossible I think to have the best, truly, truly, truly best interest of the company in mind when you're trying to hit these metrics.

[00:47:53] And again, like, I know it's different 'cause I talked to my brother Anthony, who's at a big sales organization, but if you don't hit a number on, you know, the end of the quarter, and it hits the next day, the fact that that, like, drastically shifts, you know, numbers and expectations and, you know, all of it, I'm like, that's insanity, you know? And if you take that away, I think most businesses are better off. 

[00:48:15] Leigh Chesley: I agree, and, you know, I say I was on my soapbox, but I can say it because, you know, we're not VC funded, you know, we're not PE funded. So, I am, I'm cognizant of the fact that I'm in, you know, a nice situation where I work for a super reasonable founder who has longevity as his goal.

[00:48:34] I'm curious if there's any, like, would you have advice for people who want, like, maybe you can't go all the way that way, right? If, if you're, you have guidance that you've gotta meet and things like that, but like, do you think there's a way that we can somehow, five years from now look back and, like, we've at least met in the middle somewhere?

[00:48:52] Daniel Weiner: Leigh, you're ready for a podcast, you're already asking me questions. . Um, yeah, I think you have to think in terms of doing things. So, when people talk to me a lot during the context of finding agencies, everything's based on needs, timeline, and budget, and some people often come with like, you know, we want to do this for three months, and a hundred percent of a hundred percent of people I talk to say the same thing, if it's successful

[00:49:18] we'll spend more and keep doing, I'm like, "Yeah, no shit, of course. Why wouldn't you?" If everything's successful, we'd all be, you know, billionaires. Um, my, you know, uh, pushback to that is if that's the case, what can you spend for a year? You know, and they're like, "Well, what do you mean?" I'm like, "'Cause I would rather see a full season, I would, you know, if you do something for a short period of time, anything, in my opinion, you can't say with a reasonable level of, of, you know, certainty if it was successful,

[00:49:43] if it was actually successful 'cause it didn't run long enough, and conversely, if it didn't, you know, do so well, if it was actually not successful." So, I think it's important to think and work backwards from, like, what can you theoretically spend if it ends up returning nothing, is like, some tip. I probably say it, like, 20 times a day on every call I'm on with marketers of everything I say is easier said when it's not my own money. I'm like, "Yeah, let's spend $10 million, sounds awesome, like, I, let's do it tomorrow." 

[00:50:13] Leigh Chesley: Sounds exciting. Would love to do that. Yeah. 

[00:50:15] Daniel Weiner: To your, to your point, it's communication I really think, and again, easier said than done, it's honest conversations, like, I think I just saw in Pavilion, actually, what was it, 62%, I wanna say, I could have that wrong, a massive number of sales teams missed their numbers, you know,

[00:50:29] and is it over-forecasting and stuff? I think, like, we get so obsessed with numbers, especially in marketing, and if you get so obsessed with the numbers, you'll, A, you'll never try certain things, and B, you just stop too soon. So, like, I wanna see consistency and sustained efforts.

[00:50:50] So, my long, or the short answer to that is that, whatever you have to do to do things for, like, I mean, at a minimum nine months, but really, like, what are you doing for a year to give it the old college try before you pull the plug essentially. 

[00:51:05] Leigh Chesley: Yes. I totally, I mean, I, I've worked with so many people who are afraid to spend, afraid to test, afraid to keep spending and justify spend because of what you just said, and I think it shoots so many companies in the foot. 

[00:51:19] Um, it makes sense that they, they lose their job at a lot of places. So, that's what I'm saying, like you said, you're lucky that you have a founder who gets it and stuff like that, if, uh, if I was at a company and I had a founder who did not get it, you know, and they made these blanket statements, and I pushed back, you know, if I'm doing something crazy and it doesn't work well, I'm probably getting fired.

[00:51:35] Daniel Weiner: So, I respect it, I think it's more, like, yeah, that I'm, I'm so, like, consistency, truthfully, it beats out everything, like, you just find out so much more, you have to do things for a sustained amount of time. What keeps you up at night from a marketing or business standpoint? 

[00:51:52] Leigh Chesley: You know, I think, right now, probably the same sorts of things that keep other people up, you know, we, we're a stable company, so I'm not, you know, we haven't taken on funding, we're not going through a lot of the constriction that, that other companies have been going through, thankfully. But, you know, we do have a lot of global, you know, Fortune 100, Fortune 500 brands who are optimizing their supply chain.

[00:52:14] So, it's great for us because they're still kind of in this digital transformation that they will be going through for the next five years as a result of the pandemic, which is awesome. But are there going to be spending freezes? You know, these are companies that have shareholders that they're responsible for, and supply chain projects are not known to be cheap.

[00:52:31] Um, so, how is the market going to balance creating a, I would say, flexible supply chain, creating, you know, going through these digital transformations in supply chain with inflation and what's going on in the market and, and things like that, and the responsibility that they rightly so have to their shareholders.

[00:52:50] Leigh Chesley: So, I think just keeping a really close eye on the market and being there to support our customers, then understanding if projects need to shift and having flexibility and things like that, um, is really what, what we're focused on right now, but, you know, other than that, I, I, there's not a lot that keeps me up at night, there's no such thing as a marketing emergency, Danny, like, we're, we're in a good spot. 

[00:53:13] Daniel Weiner: You'd be, you'd be surprised at the, uh, the foe emergencies I've dealt with in my, uh, in my career. I, I believe as well, I'm glad, there's, there's one marketing emergency I think, if you're like a massive eCommerce retailer, like, your site's down or something like that, I'll put that in the, I'll put that in the emergency category. Outside of that, I can't think of any. 

[00:53:33] Leigh Chesley: I said that, I took a week off in August. I was, I was burned out, like, okay, Leigh, I was just burned out, and I said, I'm gonna take a week off and do absolutely nothing, don't call me, like, and I said, "The only marketing emergency is, is the website goes down." What do you think happened? 

[00:53:47] Daniel Weiner: The website went down, Leigh? 

[00:53:49] Leigh Chesley: My digital marketing person was like, "You realize I hold you personally responsible for this situation, right?" Like, that's fair, I somewhat manifested this. 

[00:54:00] Daniel Weiner: I'm going to the Dominican Republic tomorrow to hopefully relax 'cause I'm slightly burnt out as well. Were you able to unplug? 

[00:54:06] Leigh Chesley: Oh yeah. I didn't go anywhere or do anything. I just read really trashy books and spent a lot of time outside. 

[00:54:13] Daniel Weiner: That'll be the next podcast. That is the final marketing question we have for you. I have three final ones for you. In a non, non-marketing related, what was your very first job growing up?

[00:54:26] Leigh Chesley: I worked.

[00:54:27] Daniel Weiner: If you worked were growing up.

[00:54:28] Leigh Chesley: I did. Gayle and Buddy had me working at 15. Love it.

[00:54:32] I worked in the kids' daycare room at a Ladies Workout Express, which, if you think about that demographic, everyone coming in that gym had at least one, if not multiple children, and there were times that I would have, like, 15 kids under four, and, I mean, it was, it was pretty awful. Did it prepare you at all for what you're doing now? 

[00:54:55] I will say I learned that, like, I learned what I don't want to do. 

[00:55:00] Daniel Weiner: So, I was just trying to remember who said it, whoever I, uh, it was either the last podcast or the one before, I can't remember what the job was, but they were like, yeah, showed me exactly what I never wanted to do in my life. 

[00:55:10] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. Teacher, not, like, I don't have, not, not it for me. So, yeah, yeah. 

[00:55:16] Daniel Weiner: What is your final meal if you had to pick? 

[00:55:19] Leigh Chesley: Pizza.

[00:55:21] Daniel Weiner: From?

[00:55:22] Leigh Chesley: Oh, see that's hard 'cause they're all different. I would say more of a New York-style pizza, and I just want cheese, like, you don't need to make that.

[00:55:30] Daniel Weiner: Just ch, what are you, Kevin McCallister from Home Alone? Cheese pizza just for you. 

[00:55:35] Leigh Chesley: Cheese, I, I would sit down and eat a full cheese pizza out of the box. Just no shame whatsoever. 

[00:55:42] Daniel Weiner: Fair, that, that, that's my takeaway from this. How do you get to the C-suite, only cheese, you know, straight to the point? Uh, and the final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both?

[00:55:53] Leigh Chesley: So, I will say, like, this is a broad, um, this is a broad answer, maybe it's cop-out, but I will say founders of, like, all company types and sizes. So, Danny, like, people like you, people like, 

[00:56:06] Daniel Weiner: Ah, what a, what a kiss ass, Leigh, you're already on my board, you don't have to say that. 

[00:56:11] Leigh Chesley: Well, hey, it's, it's the truth, I mean, I think that it's something that a lot of people talk about they want to do like, "Oh, I could go, I've got this great idea, or I've got a mediocre idea," it doesn't even matter, your, your idea was great, like, I could go out, and I could totally do this on my own, and, um, think it takes a lot of guts to, like, make that decision to go and just do your thing.

[00:56:32] And, I mean, we've talked about how hard it can be to set your own personal boundaries and things like that. And so, I think that knowing what it takes to probably take those first, call it, like, five steps to just, like, get going on your own and not have a safety net is the scariest thing that I think I could ever do in my life, um. And so, I just really respect people who have done that and then, and then continue to persevere through the times that it's not at all fun because it sounds great, but I also know talking with founders that it's a lot of times not great, that there's, like, super high highs and super low lows.

[00:57:13] And so, I think anyone who can do that to create the life that they want is awesome. So, yeah, people like you really are the people that I, I look up to that I think are doing it right. 

[00:57:25] Daniel Weiner: Thank you. It is simultaneously the healthiest and unhealthiest thing I have ever done in my life, I would say, but to your point, like, you're saying, like, people who take that step, it took a global pandemic for me to take that step.

[00:57:38] So, I feel, I don't know what if, if there wasn't COVID, I'd think I'd still be at my old agency, I have no clue, truthfully, but, um, yeah, it was a hundred percent the kick in the ass I needed and the reason I say it was, like, the best thing that ever happened to me outside of, of course, the terrible things of COVID was, when I was interviewing for jobs, 'cause I resigned with nothing, uh, it felt riskier to work for someone else at that point,

[00:57:59] truthfully, like, the interviews I was having, rightly so, 'cause 2020 was the weirdest year in anyone's life, were just, like, bizarre, it was like, yeah, there's like a pandemic like we can hire you, but like, we don't really know what to, you know, nobody knew anything. So, like, I was like, "Huh, like, how's no one know anything,

[00:58:14] like, all right, I'll just dip my toes in and see if this works." So, it was kind of like the perfect storm, but, uh, yeah, I mean, the biggest tip I would say to anybody, even like, considering it is like, just fucking do it. Um, which is, again, easier said than done, but like, if you dip your toes in and don't go all in, it's hard to know if it'll actually work I think, like, it took me going all in to, like, be like, "Oh, like, this is actually like a business that could, like, do this for, like, my life rather than just, like, making a couple bucks."

[00:58:45] Leigh Chesley: And it clicked really quickly for you, I mean, in terms of like getting, there was clearly a market, let me,

[00:58:52] Daniel Weiner: A hundred percent, I, I also, not to put down what I've done, I, I joked that I was unintentionally building it for like a decade and didn't realize it, like I had a head start being at an agency, I spoke agency, I'm like, I didn't realize how many people, like, I knew, and the fact that I'm free to brands is helpful as well.

[00:59:08] But no, I mean, it's definitely nice that it clicked, I didn't have really, like, that scary "Oh shit" month where I was like, "Oh my god, like $0." You know, I didn't make a lot at all at the very beginning, but enough to, like, pay my mortgage, which was literally the goal, I was like, I can pay my mortgage and my bills like and eat,

[00:59:26] like, that's what I need, basic things taken care of, but yeah, I feel very, very fortunate, and I can't believe it took a global, uh, catastrophe to do it. 

[00:59:36] Leigh Chesley: Hey, you know, there's been a lot of horrible, horrible things that came outta COVID, obviously, but I think there's been a lot of, there are a lot of good things that came out of it, too. Like, things, like, people just changing their, allowing themselves to change their own expectation for the way they're gonna live. So, I'm all for that. 

[00:59:53] Daniel Weiner: I'm with you, Leigh. This was awesome, thank you so much for joining, and I know this isn't gonna air for, like, another week, but, uh, you better be at that board dinner or else, so. 

[01:00:01] Leigh Chesley: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. This has been fun, I am, now I feel like I need to start my own podcast and just bitch about revenue generation.

[01:00:09] Daniel Weiner: A hundred percent. Call it that. 

[01:00:11] Leigh Chesley: Bitching about revenue generation. 

[01:00:13] Daniel Weiner: Can't think of a better, you know, I like a punny obvious name. My company's called YouShouldTalkTo. I'm with you.

[01:00:18] Leigh Chesley: Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks. 

[01:00:19] Daniel Weiner: I will talk to you soon, Leigh.

[01:00:21] Leigh Chesley: All right.