[00:00:00] Hedy Payghambari: You can't manage something if you can't measure it. And then, you can't maximize something if you're not managing it. And so, having an idea of what are your goals and the couple of handful of KPIs that you should look at so that you could have an intuition on a weekly basis of how you're doing towards those 

[00:00:53] Daniel Weiner: Hello and welcome to another episode of the YouShouldTalkTo Podcast. I am Daniel Weiner and this podcast is brought to you by myself, as well as YouShouldTalkTo until I'll sponsor ponies up the big box. YouShouldTalkTo pairs brands and marketers for free, with vetted agencies and/or freelancers for pretty much any marketing or technique, because finding great agencies is a pain in the ass.

[00:01:13] Today, I am joined by the Head of Digital Growth at Blaze Pizza, Hedy Payghambari. How are you, Hedy? 

[00:01:20] Hedy Payghambari: Hey, good morning.

[00:01:21] Daniel Weiner: This was, uh, took us quite a few emails to get this scheduled, so I'm especially thrilled to, uh, not have to go back and forth on dates anymore with you.

[00:01:30] Hedy Payghambari: I know. 

[00:01:30] I'm pumped to be here, though. Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:33] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, absolutely. Let's dive right in. What is your most unpopular opinion in the marketing world or a hot take of sorts? What do you got for me?

[00:01:43] I don't think it's unpopular, but it might be more on the hot-take side of things where.

[00:01:48] Daniel Weiner: We love con, we love controversy here on the podcast.

[00:01:50] Hedy Payghambari: Controversy. Yes. So, whether in-house or agency or working with both, I come from business background, growth marketing, performance marketing background where, and I work in digital too, which a lot of things are measurable.

[00:02:05] So, it's kind of like a blessing and a curse where you can measure things, but it can get overwhelming on how many things you should measure, how often. But my hot take is in order to really know where you're going, you have to look at things on a weekly basis. And I'm not talking about, like, every metric and every KPI, but if you have a goal, it doesn't make sense to look at things monthly.

[00:02:28] And this is where, you know, you could argue for and against where if you're looking at it monthly, that's where you see trends, right? But monthly or quarterly QBRs, they're not fast enough to pivot, based on insights and where consumers are going and just things that are, are not working. And so, that's my hot take.

[00:02:46] And I've had healthy conversations and frictions with both, internal teams and agencies of like, "Okay, how much do you measure and how often, in order to be effective to, to reach your goals?"

[00:02:57] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. One of, one of my, somewhat, hot takes is that if you measure too much as well, like, you'll never, if you only do things that are measurable, you'll never, uh, do any of the cool stuff, presumably or, or try and fail and find what really works. But, is what you're talking about more like a case for having live dashboards and stuff like that, that's constantly pulling in, you know, uh, metrics?

[00:03:19] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. And, and you're absolutely right. There's some things that can't be quantified, right? Like, it's really difficult to measure brand awareness on a weekly basis. So, those are some things where you are, there's more gray area, but for when it comes to driving sales through digital, like, do you have an understanding of CPM week over week?

[00:03:37] Sometimes it spikes in like, "What impact did that, and should you invest more? Should you invest less?" Same with like your cost per acquisition or your conversion rates. There's things that break. There's things that are out of your control. There are, again, changes in the economy. 

[00:03:54] So, just having a pulse on some of your main KPIs, on a weekly basis rather than, like, to your point, it's, you can also get, what's that saying, like, "Paralysis by analysis." And so, but for me, the, again, the hot take is like you can't manage something if you can't measure it. And then, you can't maximize something if you're not managing it. And so, having an idea of what are your goals and your, the couple of handful of KPIs that you should look at so that you could have an intuition on a weekly basis of how you're doing towards those areas.

[00:04:26] I would imagine it's especially relevant in the context of Blaze Pizza with how many locations and seasonality, regional stuff, and the amount of just different moving pieces around the business, which leads into, like, for those who haven't heard of it yet, tell us a little bit about Blaze Pizza and where you guys fit into the, uh, the world.

[00:04:44] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. So, Blaze Pizza, we're LA-based. We've been around, we're just celebrating our 10-year anniversary. We have over 340-some locations. And you may have heard, uh, yes, LeBron James is an investor. So, he's, he's our to fame. 

[00:05:01] Daniel Weiner: I've, I've heard of him. 

[00:05:02] We couldn't, we couldn't get LeBron on the podcast, so we said we settled for you.

[00:05:06] Hedy Payghambari: I know, I'm sorry. I'll, I'll try next time. You'll have to settle for me in this, in this scenario. And we're chef founded. So, our chef who is part one of the founders is still with the brand. So, that's a really exciting part, for me is we, our innovation and art footprint. We're kind of like the Chipotle of pizza, where you have so many fresh ingredients to choose from and you can go down the line and pick out your crust, uh, your toppings, and then it's baked right in front of you in this really hot, fire-roasted oven, and you can enjoy it right out of that fresh, hot experience.

[00:05:42] So, that's a little bit about Blaze.

[00:05:45] Daniel Weiner: That's amazing. So, I'm just curious, not necessarily, even as it pertains to pizza, but just being in a, you know, a space where you're competing for attention against, you know, several other competitors, how do you feel like a brand can stand out? You know, when it comes time to order pizza or, you know, anything in that space, what can you do to gain, like, a competitive advantage to be front of mind for folks?

[00:06:05] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting you bring up pizza because, yeah, it's the number one food category in the US. There's so much noise around it, but I think it, it comes back to the same marketing principles. And even before pizza, I was actually on the agency side where I had range of clients from Jeep and Chrysler to makeup, to literally a surgical suction-like equipment company, like the variety of and guest experiences.

[00:06:32] And I think what it all comes back to how you stand out is, "Do you understand the need state of what your customer wants and when they buy what they want? And how can you be top of mind for when they're making that decision for pizza?" Most people make their decision that day. You're not planning, like, four days in advance of like, "I want pizza on X day."

[00:06:52] And so, again, I think it's understanding the need states. And then, the other piece is, is just, and this is what I, I think a lot of brands, no one has perfected it yet, but it's being authentic in your marketing, everything from the tone that you speak in to the way you present yourself, but also in the way you target your guest.

[00:07:12] So, I think we're at the point now in technology where guests expect a more personalized one-to-one communication. So, if I'm a vegetarian, how do I not get the pizza that's all about meat toppings, right? Or if I'm someone who buys pizza every week, how should my communication be different than somebody who is a, you know, one to two-time purchaser?

[00:07:40] So, I think that's really the key. And it's more of an art than a science of how to stand out, is understanding your guests through industry research, through first-party data, third-party data, and then just trying to appear when they're at the point when they need your product rather than, you know, doing a one to many communication and blast.

[00:07:59] Daniel Weiner: Sure. And I know that you weren't there during Covid, but do you think, like, you have any grand takeaways regarding food industry post-Covid and, like, how to reach customers? I, I, you know, I know even my dining habits, as someone who considers themselves, even though I hate the word, a foodie, have changed drastically, truthfully.

[00:08:16] Have you seen any, like, huge takeaways or anything that surprises you in a, a post-Covid atmosphere?

[00:08:22] Hedy Payghambari: Not surprised. But I think it is what excites me, which is after Covid, and this is not news to anyone probably listening, but digital jumped like 10 years. And for any restaurant, I think the industry number is like one-third of restaurant sales come through a digital channel. So, that's a thing that change.

[00:08:43] And that's now the challenge for marketers, which is like, "Okay, how do you scale this? How do we in, now that we're kind of, 2020 and 2021 were weird years, I'm so glad to not have to do year-over-year comparisons anymore, and now that we're entering, quote-unquote, new normal, how do we keep the momentum going so that we have more people that we can speak to online than we ever have before? But with great power comes great responsibility to also make sure that you're creating a better experience for the guests.

[00:09:14] So, I think that's the biggest takeaway and just what excites me overall about digital. And I love this field 'cause it's always changing. It's never the same. You never get bored. And that's the, yeah, I think that's the excitement.

[00:09:27] Daniel Weiner: Awesome. I wasn't expecting a, a Spiderman quote on this podcast, so, uh, I, I, I hope I, I hope YouTube, I hope YouTube doesn't flag this for, uh, for a copyright infringement. Coming, I'm especially curious since you come from agency world, what's your overall opinion of agencies? Even though that is my business, you know, and I support folks like you, uh, they get a bad rep sometimes.

[00:09:48] Everybody has a, a negative agency experience. Do you think you're a little more sympathetic to agency practices and their, their woes, coming from that world? 

[00:09:56] Hedy Payghambari: You become more sympathetic. But I think, I love having worked in an agency and in-house because it really does give you the POV of, of both, where you're more sympathetic, but it's also your expectations are higher because you know what goes on behind the scenes. And I think, you know, agencies are absolutely necessary in, based on where you are in your business.

[00:10:18] And I'm kind of on the mindset that when you're small and starting, you need outside expertise to scale. So, that's where you need agencies. Then you hit this like middle tier, where maybe you've scaled some things and you're looking to bring some things in-house because you are strong in some areas.

[00:10:37] You still need external partners in some areas. And then, and this is another hot take, you know, so, you could just agree or disagree, and then you hit. 

[00:10:45] Daniel Weiner: Very, controversial. This whole episode is riddled with controversy. 

[00:10:49] Hedy Payghambari: And Spiderman quotes, apparently. And so, when you hit a scale of another size where you're larger. I think that's when you almost go back to some agent.

[00:10:58] So, it's almost like this, like, you know, like downward problem of like needing external sources to scale, "Oh, I have some things figured out. I'm gonna bring some things in-house." And then, "Oh, I'm too large again, and I really need to seek external expertise to scale." And so, I think, again, agencies based on where you are, what part of your business, your need state are definitely key, and they're a great toolkit to have. But it, yeah, both a love and hate relationship, sometimes.

[00:11:27] Daniel Weiner: That aligns with, uh, most of the people I interview on this podcast. Uh, mostly the, the hate part is just because of bad sales practice, which kind of moves into the next, uh, a very natural segue, an unintended one. Most people I talk to with your title, especially at, you know, big or, uh, well-known consumer-facing brands like Blaze and stuff like that are getting inundated, you know, 20 times a day on LinkedIn, text, phone calls, emails, the whole shebang.

[00:11:52] Uh, is that consistent with you, or are you getting hit up by agencies and vendors, cold, every single day, essentially?

[00:11:58] Hedy Payghambari: Oh, yeah. You betcha.

[00:12:01] Daniel Weiner: And is it, or any of them are, would you say the vast majority are not targeted in any capacity and they have done zero research on you or your business?

[00:12:09] Hedy Payghambari: Unfortunately, I would say, like, 85% are like that. And it is really alarming, and you can tell. And I don't think I have such empathy for people doing this because that's your job. I, you know, it's a numbers game. It's like, "How many people can I reach out to seek to see who I can get a response from?" But you can also tell it's a numbers game because a number of times I'll get an email or I'll get calls on my personal phone number, and I'm like, "How did you find me?" And like, "How did this happen?" 

[00:12:41] But I think the number of emails or outreach on LinkedIn or work email, or even personal email, somehow, again, is found that you get, that's so broad that's like, "Oh, hey, I know you might be busy just bumping this up in your inbox."

[00:12:55] And that's like, "What? How you immediately lose me?" Or, "Oh, I have this X,Y,Z solution. Would love to talk to you." And for me, I love learning about new things that are happening, whether it's agency or technology, but we're also all dealing with finite amount of time in your week. And so, the pitches that stand out the most are the ones that

[00:13:17] have done the research to at least show you like, "Hey, here's my solutions. This is X, Y, Z, this is a case study." Or, "Here's a video to watch for two minutes on who we are." Or, "Here's some results, here's some, like, clients we work with." And actually give me a sense of, "Oh, you, you have done a little bit of research to understand my business problems because you at least know the food industry or the pizza industry or a company of my size."

[00:13:41] And then, they'll talk about the solutions that are there. And then offer some type of incentive for your meeting. And I'm not talking about like, "Gimme something for free." I'm talking about like, "Hey, would love to do a complimentary audit." Like, "I don't need a bottle of wine, I need a, you know, I want an audit of where I stand against my competitors and then to see how you help me."

[00:14:01] But it is 10 to 15% do that. And the majority, unfortunately, do not.

[00:14:07] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. Over the, the course of my career, I've probably done every bad sales outreach in some capacity, at some point in my life. There's, uh, I consider him a friend, Will Alred, if you know that name, he's on LinkedIn. Uh, he's the co-founder of Lavender, which is like an AI email tool. And he always talks, says, "Your prospect is not thinking about you."

[00:14:25] Which is something I kind of like, once I saw it, I was like, "Oh, you're right." Like, they're literally never, about it, so, like, when you talk about like, "Oh, like, just bumping this up in your email," which I get from people 50 times a week, as well. I'm just like, "Did this, has this ever once worked?"

[00:14:37] Like, it can't, surely it has not. But then I'm like, it has to have worked once, at least once 'cause, like, they're still doing it. And I truthfully don't know. I think a lot of it's, I have empathy too. And I think it's, like, interesting when people on LinkedIn, especially, like, call out, you know, salespeople and I'm like, "We should be calling out the sales leaders." I think, like, who have enabled this and said, "Yeah, like, this is the strategy we're going after."

[00:15:01] Hedy Payghambari: And can I just say another struggle or pet peeve I have is, let's say, someone really does have a good intro email, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'd love to talk to you." I've also had it happen where, like, multiple intake calls are required until I learn about your product and again, totally understand you're doing your due diligence.

[00:15:23] You need to understand my business, but I also, I can't do, like, two to three intake calls with every company that does an outreach. It's like, "We have half an hour together or hour at most." Like, "Let's swap some learnings and see what some ideal outcomes would be." As opposed to just like, "Okay, this is a great intake call now I'm this." And then, you know, "Can we sign an NDA, and we'll get more information to you?"

[00:15:47] And by that point, I'm just like, "Oh my goodness." Like, again, empathy, but I also need outcome.

[00:15:53] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think it's truthfully, in that scenario, a lot of vendors and agencies, truthfully, they prioritize, like, perfection in terms of qualifying versus, like a lot of the coaching I give to my agency partners is like, "You should make it astronomically easy to say yes to something." An easy way to get started in any capacity.

[00:16:11] Again, it depends on the scenario, but in the, in the, you know, context of like, "Yeah, I'm interested, let's get started on something." Like, there should be something easy that can be put together to say yes, in virtually any context, I firmly believe. If you're talking about like a full-fledged agency of record thing, probably not.

[00:16:26] You need, you know, access to a million different things. There's a contracting thing, but like, for plenty of vendors, even things I've signed up for, like, "Oh, we want to get you on with a sound." I'm like, "I'm ready to buy, take my money." You know? And they won't, which I think is hysterical.

[00:16:38] Is there anything you think these people can do to stand out or is it more just like, if it's timely and somewhat relevant?

[00:16:47] Hedy Payghambari: Demonstrating understanding of my business or the industry. I understand sometimes, again, there's a lot of information out there about pizza. And you can even research, in digital you can go look up all my platforms and have a POV on what, you know, we're doing well or not. So, I think coming to the table withstands 'cause that's why you, that's why you hire external partners is like, " "We hire you 'cause you have a point of view in this space, and you're, you're so good at it that I want you to pull me in." And like, "Take me along with your vision."

[00:17:17] So, I think that's the part, it's at least showing an understanding of the industry whether it's pizza or certain technology or service. And then, coming and identifying the problems that you see and then how you're gonna be able to help solve it, I think, is what makes people stand out. And also persistence. Because I'm, right now, my need state might not be X, Y, Z, but talk to me in six months, and it might be. And I love vendors who check in, not to just say like, "Checking in." Like, "Can we meet again?" But rather, "Hey, here's a case study that we published that you may find interesting based on these, like, couple of things you told me." Or, "Here's a blog." Or like, "Oh, here's this thing that made me think of you, hope you find this information."

[00:18:04] And then, you're top-of-mind, but you're not asking for meetings and, you know, you're not just like doing something to do something, but providing intelligent conversation points so that way I can be like, "Oh yeah, wow, this is a good case study." Like, "I'll have five minutes to skim something." So, showing understanding of the industry or business and then following up with relevant information is what would probably make and has made agency stand out to me before. 

[00:18:31] Daniel Weiner: It's funny you bring that up about sending case studies. I, because it's, it's because, uh, I think in the agency world, it's so largely, uh, relationship driven. And I've, as coming from an agency background of someone selling, like, I totally get it. It's funny to hear that because I talk to so many people with your title, you know, CMOs, VPs of marketing, all that.

[00:18:49] And so many tell me, "I don't want your bullshit case study." You know, like, "As your, as your follow up or something like that." And I hear plenty that say the other side, what you said of like, "Yeah, I want to see something that actually makes sense." Other than that, which goes back to, like, the overall, you know, thesis of basically my entire company is, "Nothing matters outside of knowing your audience." Like, whoever is trying to attempt to talk to you and knowing, within reason, again, it's hard to know right away, but, like, knowing what drives you and what makes you tick and what you know makes you successful in your job, in the context of Blaze Pizza and stuff like that, while simultaneously not coming off too thirsty, for lack of a better word. And it's that fine line 'cause, you know, it's a song and dance at the end of the day.

[00:19:34] Like, you know that they want your business, and they know that you know that they want their, you know, and it's figuring out that nuance of like, you know, not coming off as a, you know, annoying, truthfully while still providing some layer of value until you're ready to actually have a, you know, an actionable conversation.

[00:19:52] Hedy Payghambari: So, another hot take. 'Cause I completely agree with you that some case studies are bs, but you can tell a vendor that knows what they're doing by the way they do their case studies. And the way they annotate things and the way they like, measure, lift. So, it, it even gives me a sneak preview of how you will measure my work in a potential relationship.

[00:20:14] Daniel Weiner: You're gonna get 700 case studies in the next like, three to five weeks from, from vendors being like, "Check out this case study we did. Look at all these case studies, so many case studies for you."

[00:20:23] Hedy Payghambari: Damn it. Yeah, it's happening. 

[00:20:24] Daniel Weiner: I think, I know, I was gonna say, I think I know the answer to this next question since it's how we got connected, but when you do need to outsource something, where are you typically starting your search?

[00:20:35] You know, is it existing relationships, colleagues, communities, dare I say Google, which no one answers these days? I'm just curious, where are you, uh, typically starting?

[00:20:44] Hedy Payghambari: Community, first place because you want to hear of successful relationships and what problems they've solved. So, I would say community is the first place. Just peers, mentors, reaching out to your network and being like, "Hey, this is my problem. Who have you seen solve this?" Well, I think the second area would be groups or

[00:21:10] partners that specialize in this, such as yourself or another one that I won't name. And that they're really well connected with agencies to see, "Okay, who can we, who's good in this space?" And you can, right, there's a certain level of vetting that's already been done. And then it, especially in my world, with technology, I think the third area is reaching out to your existing partners because it becomes more difficult to bring on agencies who don't have experience with your existing technology. So, oftentimes I've gone to tech partners and said, "Who do you work with well?" And that's been another way to get recommendations.

[00:21:49] Daniel Weiner: No, it makes total sense. In general, once you do, you know, start that process of looking for an outsourced solution for say, technology or a vendor, or an agency, what in general are you looking for that would make, you know, one or two stand out amongst the rest and then make it to your short list of sorts?

[00:22:06] Hedy Payghambari: I mean, this is probably a cliche answer, but looking for a partner that can demonstrate the understand your problem. So, when we were talking about, like, intake calls, right? Like, I don't wanna do multiple introductory meetings, but when you are trying to select an agency, that's where you're absolutely less like, "Let's talk, I will offer you my time. I need you to have time to ask the right questions in order to understand the problems that you're solving."

[00:22:32] So, I think the number one need is having an understanding of the opportunities as well as the weaknesses. 'Cause sometimes, like, we keep solving for, like, the business problems, but it's also like, "What do you see me doing well that I should lean into more?" So, that being the first. And then, second is partners that are proactive and that are pulling you.

[00:22:55] And I think there's a, you know, there's a place where you, our partners and there's a place where you pulled. But, ultimately, I've always wanted partners who are like, "Hey, this is where we're going." And like, "We're taking you with us. And here's the benefits, and here's the risks." Like, "Do you want in or out?"

[00:23:10] So, I think, for me, those are proactiveness, understanding of the business, and then also, act as an extension of your business because you bring on an agency and then Covid hits, or you open X number of stores, or you're facing another, like a, you know, potential or a reception is coming on board. So, we can't operate our services the same way.

[00:23:31] So, an agency that would take a step back and be like, "Hey, we, we pitched you X, Y and Z, but actually, like, maybe it should change because I learned more about you and not just do something because we've always been doing it that way."

[00:23:44] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. Proactiveness is typically the biggest thing I hear when I ask that question. There's usually a caveat. It's proactiveness and, like, coming with ideas and stuff like that as long as every single idea is not associated with a dollar amount or like a new sale, or like re, rescoping and stuff like that, which is, I think, the, why I see a lot of misalignment on the frontend.

[00:24:05] I talked about this, I think on the last podcast episode we recorded. Like, I think, typically what brands want, you know, or what I hear when I speak to them is they want, and you just, you know, kind of hit the nail on the head, like an inherent level of flexibility. Covid hits or something, say, drastically less severe.

[00:24:19] Something changes. You want to be able to manipulate a scope or services that, that makes sense for the business, rightly so. Agencies, in their ideal world, your scope would never change. And your, you know, services would stay the same. The amount of time it takes would allow them to staff it correctly.

[00:24:36] It would, you know, make everyone's lives easier. And that's just not how the world works. So, I'm, you know, usually advising folks to figure that out on the frontend, like when stuff inherently changes, when we open a new restaurant, when a restaurant, hopefully, it doesn't, but closes or things like that. Like, how are we shifting this scope?

[00:24:51] How is that gonna affect budget? And all that stuff. But I feel like those conversations, most of the times, happen, before, like, when it's too late, unfortunately. Like, you know, you're already in a weird state. And, uh, have you experienced that at all? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:25:06] Hedy Payghambari: I think some of them are predictable, but some of them are also not. Because when you sign on to work with a client, you have an assumption of everyone's strength, their strength, and weaknesses, and then you work with them and then you're like, "Oh, well, actually that's your weakness." Or, "That's your strength."

[00:25:22] So, I think there's some that you can predict and then some you, you can't. And so, that's where that, but also get it, right? Like, if you are an agency, yeah, you have to staff your team, and you, you have to be able to hit certain projections and things like that. But there's that inherent learning that comes from working with a client for six months to a year, where you're gonna find things out about them that might make you, if you could go back, pitch services in a different way.

[00:25:50] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. And I love a natural, another natural segue. I've seen a big shift since Covid, especially of brands, especially more household name brands moving towards smaller independent agencies that are specialized in, like, one to two things versus, like, agencies of record and things like that. Do you have an opinion on that?

[00:26:07] Is that something that you think is here to stay? Is that something you are interested in particular? Talk me through.

[00:26:13] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. I mean, I think almost every marketer that I speak to in my network is going through same progression of, "Do you go with an AOR? Do you go with multiple-specialized agencies or do you bring things in-house?" And so, there's benefits. 

[00:26:30] Daniel Weiner: What's your, what's your preference?

[00:26:31] My preference is also not the realistic. So, my, I think it's, I think it's easier to work with an agency that does multiple things for you because you get scale and the people become more integrated in your business and you, they understand you. You don't have to play the telephone game multiple times.

[00:26:51] Hedy Payghambari: So, it's, there's certain efficiencies that come with that. But on the downside, I also don't think one agency can do everything for you. That's not fair. Like, there's no way and it, that you can do, like, seven things well, you might be able to do one or two things really well. And so, that's where it might make sense to centralize where you're like, "Okay, I know this agency does two, these two things really well, this third thing not so much, but I'm getting that synergy of having it all in one place." Or you could be better off working with three different agencies that do three separate things and move at a faster pace 'cause they're so good at what they do. But then, there's a little bit of that inefficiency and likely higher cost that comes with it.

[00:27:33] So, again, one of those like art, not a science. And you have to look at your business, and based also on where you are and your maturity of which relationships you lean into more.

[00:27:45] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think Covid kind of was like a great displacement, as well. Like, talent is everywhere. It's not necessarily centralized to New York or LA or anything like that anymore. And also just smaller independent agencies who, which is who I primarily work with, they are hungrier and I, I firmly believe that, you know, business is more important to them inherently because it's a bigger piece of their revenue and keeps their team going and stuff like that.

[00:28:09] So, I know a lot of the agencies I work with are willing to go to the ends of the earth to win particular clients and stuff like that, whereas bigger agencies, they're not always willing to go the extra mile presale, and they're, uh, they expect to win a little bit more, which is not the case, I would say.

[00:28:28] Hedy Payghambari: Right. 'Cause they're leveraging their expertise in this space as the driver.

[00:28:33] Daniel Weiner: Absolutely. Can you think of a really positive agency experience you've had, either a Blaze or in the past, and what made it so positive?

[00:28:41] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah, for sure. I've definitely had good ones. In a role that I had we were building a new website. We worked with a really great agency who, when they were pitching, truly sold the people. And it was the people that made the difference. 'Cause a team you were talking to, some of them stayed from the pitch to the team that actually worked with you.

[00:29:05] And that's something that changes, right, is you get pitched by one team, and then the team that works with you is, is very different. And so, it was one of those that felt like they knew our problems as well as we did, if not better. And it was awesome, and I loved having conversations where, you know, I'm pretty opinionated about some things I wanna get solved.

[00:29:25] And then, they would be like, "We hear you, and here's a couple of examples of, 'Yes, we could go this ways.' And here's an example of, like, 'We shouldn't.'" It was really healthy, intellectual pushback of what's best for the guest. And I would work with them in a heartbeat, again, 'cause it was, again,the people truly made the difference because they understood the business, and we were able to have really good conversations around what is best for our end consumer at the end of the day.

[00:29:54] Daniel Weiner: And it's funny you bring that up 'cause it's kind of my hot take, which you further prove. So, it'll, it will remain as, I'm sure the website ended up being wonderful, but you didn't mention the actual work once, in that description, and my hot take is that the work doesn't matter. And what I mean by that is if you don't do the people stuff on the frontend and earn trust, like, you don't get to do the work, you could build the best website on the planet, have the most talented developers, and designers, but if you can't figure out the first part, you don't get to do the second part. 

[00:30:22] And, coming from agency background, like, we did a lot of big website work at my old agency, and I can't think of a single time, truthfully, that we would get to the end and the compliments would be like, "Oh, the website is gorgeous." It would be like, "Yeah, like, thank you for making this kind of like stress-free."

[00:30:39] Like, "This was such a long, arduous process. Thanks for, like, making it reasonably fun." You know? It was never like, "Oh, the homepage is like the best homepage I've ever seen in my life." So, yeah, I firmly believe the people side. And it's rare, truthfully, too, that's the most common thing I hear regarding bigger agencies, typically is, yeah, you're pitched by, you know, the A team, quote-unquote, and then they go back to, you know, their offices, Mad Men style, to have a drink and, uh, a proverbial cigarette.

[00:31:05] And you get the people you've never seen before doing the actual work.

[00:31:08] Hedy Payghambari: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're a hundred percent right. It's the process, making the process frictionless and being proactive. Those are the things that you remember more than, yeah, the product you build. That's such a good point.

[00:31:22] Daniel Weiner: And making your life easier, I would imagine, too. You've got a million things going on. If you're hiring somebody and paying them a ton of money to build a website, it should be, I know you have to be involved, but, uh, it should be, uh, make your life easier and free up time for you to do other stuff, as well, I imagine.

[00:31:37] Hedy Payghambari: For sure.

[00:31:38] let's talk some shit now. Let's talk about the negative ones without, without naming anybody, negative agency experiences that you've had, and what made them so negative. 

[00:31:48] Hedy Payghambari: Lack of proactiveness and curiosity. So, similar things to what I...

[00:31:52] Daniel Weiner: Presale or post or, or once engaged?

[00:31:56] During engagement, post in, in this scenario where, I think, again, we, businesses change, even account management changes, right? Like, new people come into roles, people leave. And so, you have to, to your earlier point of, like, understanding the people, you have to take a step back and be like, "Okay, do I know this person's pain points?

[00:32:16] Hedy Payghambari: Am I working best to suit their needs, and has the business changed as a result of all this?" And I think the example in my mind where it was really frustrating is stating a friction point. Like, I'll be like, "Hey, this is a problem for me." And it's really well received. But then, the solution is like only, like, 20% solved and going back and saying like, "Hey, there's still this friction point." And feeling like you're pulling them.

[00:32:44] Where, for me, I'm like, if I, a great partnership is like, "Hey, this is a problem for me, like, please go and solve it." And you come back with really solid solutions of like, "Hey, this is three different ways we could go. And here's the good, here's the bad, let's decide together." 'Cause I don't expect every agency to solve everything on their own.

[00:33:02] This should be a collaboration, but at least help me understand my options and the good and bad on each, so we can make a decision that we feel good about. So, I think that's when problems arise and agencies are not solution oriented and don't think creatively around a solution is the part that has frustrated me in the past. 

[00:33:19] Daniel Weiner: Do you think once an agency or vendor relationship has gotten to that point where there is, you know, some friction or some sort of issue that it can be salvaged and brought back to, you know, long-term success or once the bad taste is in your mouth, it's kind of meh? 

[00:33:34] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah, it's tricky. I am an eternal optimist, so I do want to think that yes. 'Cause sometimes we're not good clients. Or the agency's not performing well because we haven't defined clear goals or we haven't given them what they need. So, I think when, when an agency relationship is in question, like, we all have to ask ourself that of like, "Have I been a good client?

[00:33:58] Have I given them what they need to succeed?" But, again, also on them, are you being proactive and being like, "You're not giving me what I need in order for me to set you up for success." So, it's a two-way road. But I do think they can be salvaged if we proactively talk about the problems. And it's the same way that, you know, we, like you would give a performance review to an employee.

[00:34:20] You know, you're not gonna wait three months and then tell 'em something. So, I think being proactive in real time about, "Hey, this is an area that we could improve." Or like, "This worked really well. Can we do more of this?" Is what you can do to help foster a relationship. But, again, I think that the agency has to be asking those very same things. And if it happens, there's potential to foster that relationship.

[00:34:43] Whether you're changing your process or you're changing the people on the account, again, the, you have to think of the solution together and not in silos.

[00:34:52] Daniel Weiner: It's similar to your, uh, very first hot take of, you know, you need to measure on a weekly basis. You may not, like, do that formally with partners, but you should probably be measuring the success of a relationship on a pretty frequent basis, even if it's just internally to say like, "Hey, do we, do we still like these people?

[00:35:08] Is it still working out with them?" And all that sort of stuff with whoever's involved in the, uh, relationship.

[00:35:13] Hedy Payghambari: Oh, I love it. You just made a full circle from me, I'm gonna use that from now on. 

[00:35:17] Daniel Weiner: That's, that's what we're here to do on this podcast, you know? What are you most bullish on in the marketing space at the moment? And I imagine for a brand like Blaze, I could be wrong here, but I would guess I'm not, like you've got a good amount of, um, leeway to try cool stuff 'cause it is, you know, a cool brand and you're in pizza and stuff like that.

[00:35:36] You've got NFTs, we've got Metaverse, we've got TikTok, all the things. What are you most excited about in marketing in general or as it pertains to Blaze?

[00:35:45] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah, you're right. There's so much we can do. Like, food is fun, pizza is fun. There's so much what we can do. I wish I was at the phase where I could entertain Web 3.0 or NFTs and things like that. But, with my role, I am more at the foundational stage where I'm building my team and building.

[00:36:02] We've done a lot, we've a lot of great foundation in place, but we have more work to do. And so, I think I'm, I'm focused more on setting the foundation to help us scale in the future. And then, once that happens, being able to engage in more of these, like, shiny new objects that come up. But I'm also excited to see other brands do it and see which ones were fads and which ones are here to stay.

[00:36:25] So, you know, kind of from an industry perspective, I do like keeping up to date and just seeing where things go and having some of the, the bigger brands, maybe with bigger budgets, lead the charge and see what, yeah, what's a fad and what's the new normal.

[00:36:41] Daniel Weiner: Yeah. I think it's also interesting to hear you say that too 'cause I firmly believe, like, anytime a, I, you know, I don't fault them 'cause it's always good to experiment and test, but, like, every time something new pops out, I think it's interesting that people just flock, like immediately and you know it's okay for some, for you, for you to not participate in some of these things that pop up.

[00:37:01] You know, a new social network pops up every single day. I was reading an article about like, how brands can engage and be real, and I'm like, can we just, they don't have to either. Like, the whole, I figured out the answer. The answer is you don't have to. Like, I mean, again, I'm not discouraging testing and all that sort of stuff, but, I mean, it's overwhelming the amount of things you can participate, especially when you are, like a quote-unquote, cool brand because you can try all of these things and it not be like, you know, so out of the norm.

[00:37:27] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. And if you have a big enough team and budgets where you do have some innovation, then, then yes. But I think for a lot other brands it's, "I can do 10 things and kinda have to do them." Or, "I can do five or three things really well." And that, those are the strategic conversations you have to have internally to be like, "Ooh, shiny a new thing." But like, "Oh, I gotta finish what I started here." Or, "Oh, shiny a new thing. Wait, a business case for that and maybe will make sense for me to participate."

[00:37:56] Daniel Weiner: That's what all those case studies that are gonna fly in, are all these new, uh, business...

Hedy Payghambari: [00:38:00] You're killing with these case studies. 

[00:38:01] Daniel Weiner: ...platforms.

[00:38:02] Hedy Payghambari:  I'm gonna regret I even said that.

[00:38:05] You, you, you should, I'll, I'll blur that part out. Um,what keeps you up at night from a marketing and business standpoint?

[00:38:14] Hedy Payghambari: feel like I need, like, a therapy couch for, for this to like lean back. 

[00:38:17] Daniel Weiner: This is basically my entire, I'm not kidding, the majority of the conversations I have when I'm, like, helping folks with their agency needs turn into therapy sessions. I'm like, "This is a safe space. We don't even have to make introductions. Let's just talk." And they're like, "Oh, thank God."

[00:38:30] Hedy Payghambari: Safe space with only, you know, whoever else is listening. What keeps me up at night is the pressure of meeting long-term objectives and short-term sales goals. 'Cause they're all, they're always there. And especially being in industry's B2C tends to be more impacted, right, by what's happening in the economy.

[00:38:53] And so, it is, " How do you not sacrifice long-term growth and still keep your eye on what needs to be done today in order to hit something a year from now?" Right? Like, if you're talking about marketing automation or customer insight platforms and things like that, you built those, they take time, or you build a loyalty program.

[00:39:12] These things take time. You don't see the gains immediately. And then, you have to have the right people hired to maximize them. And but you also have short-term sales goals you have to hit. And so, it's that balance that is both exciting, as a digital marketer, but also on the flip side, keeps you up at night.

[00:39:34] Daniel Weiner: Yeah, I think it's important to, to have leadership that is realistic, you know, as to what's going on in the world. And also, like, you know, forecasts and hitting short-term wheels are great and stuff like that, but there's so many outliers of things that affect, especially in consumer-focused businesses and not, you know, like you said, straying too far and, like, getting discouraged and changing a million things at the first site of, you know, something being unsuccessful in exchange for, hopefully, achieving long-term goals and success and sustainability over time. 

[00:40:05] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah. You're absolutely right. I think having a leadership team that is aligned and understands that too is significant in making that, that's digital successful for the long run, 'cause it's no longer a nice to have, it's a must-have. And you have to figure out, "Okay, what are the short-terms, what are the long-terms, and how do we do both at the same time?"

[00:40:25] Daniel Weiner: Sure. Now that I've stressed you out, um, successfully, we'll move on to it. We'll, we'll finish with a couple fun ones. The first one, what do you think of industry events? You are one of the most sought-after titles to attend industry events, you know, agencies attend to vulture business and get in front of you and stuff like that, rightly so, that is their jobs. I have empathy for that. I'm just curious, like, in your ideal world, what would be, you know, an event you would like to attend, or how would it be structured and stuff like that?

[00:40:52] Hedy Payghambari: Ideal world? I think for, for marketers. It's so great when you can speak with people who do what you're doing. Like, that's the, I get the most energy out of that when I go to events where you can sit next to someone and be like, "Oh, you are experiencing this problem. How are you solving that?" Or, "Oh, wow, that's something really interesting you're doing, and just building your network in that way I find super, super valuable."

[00:41:17] But it is challenging when you attend summits and rightfully so, agencies sponsor it, right? So, they also want your time and attention. But I think there's tactful ways to do so. All the ways that we just described where trying to have a 15-minute or 10-minute conversation and a happy hour is not the most effective, maybe to get into my business problems that need to be solved. 

[00:41:43] Hedy Payghambari: And, like you said, again, and I have, I have the utmost respect and sympathy for it, but it does turn into, like you said, a little bit of that like vulture business where it's like, oh, I, you know, I wanna network with, if I'm at an event, I wanna talk to people who know, who do what I'm doing and meet peers and maybe even meet a couple of vendors.

[00:42:04] But it turns into like, you have your name tag, and everyone's reading your name to try to talk to you, and you just like, they get a little overwhelmed, and you talk to many, but the quality of conversation is not there. It's a quantity. So, I think that's my, in my ideal world, events that are smaller, more tailored to either an industry or a sector of marketing are the most valuable, where the, the, agencies and vendors are there, but in a strategic and productive way.

[00:42:38] Daniel Weiner: Sure. I'll, uh, I'll get working on that. I'll have a prospectus on your desk in, uh, the next couple weeks. What was your very first job growing up, or high school, or whenever you had your very first job? What was it?

[00:42:49] Hedy Payghambari: One of my first jobs was, I worked in a laser tag arena that was half laser tag, half restaurant.

[00:42:59] Daniel Weiner: Wow.

[00:42:59] Hedy Payghambari: I know, right? I know, right? So, I got really great experience being a waitress, reffing birthday parties, serving food and then, also, literally being in the laser tag arena where you're like the referee and you're, I will bust a complete childhood experience that most people probably had, where if there's two parties and they're playing with each other and, like, one is losing, part of my job was going and, like, scoring for the losing point and you're the ref. So, no one expects it. I'm just sitting there, like, racking up points for, I don't know, like a 10-year-old's birthday party. So, that was my... 

[00:43:39] Daniel Weiner: Wow, you were running a scam at this, at this laser tag. Yeah. I was gonna say, I don't know if I can trust you now after knowing you were, uh, messing with the result of a such an important match, you probably could have ruined some child, some kid's birthday back then.

[00:43:53] Hedy Payghambari: No, I like to think that we made their birthdays, 'cause if they walked out with no points that would be, that would be devastating. But, anyways.

[00:44:01] Daniel Weiner: That is fair. You're not allowed to answer the next question, Blaze. Uh, what would be your final meal if you had to pick one?

[00:44:09] I'm Persian, Iranian, so I love Persian food. So, it would definitely be some type of like, Saffron Rice and Kabob or one of the really delicious stews we have, like, would be my last meal, for sure.

[00:44:26] Daniel Weiner: Love it. And my final question for you, who is somebody who inspires you, either personally or professionally and why?

[00:44:32] Hedy Payghambari: Someone who inspires me, and has all my life, was my great-aunt. She was a tennis Olympian, she was a philanthropist. She taught art to many, and she did this all while being a really badass woman in Iran, in like the 19, uh, you know, fifties and thirties and fifties and sixties, where that wasn't really popular.

[00:45:00] Daniel Weiner: a thing. I imagine. 

[00:45:02] Hedy Payghambari: And so, um, taught me so much of my creativity and being empathetic, and she was like a second grandmother to me. And, you know, on the topic of who inspires you, I think if you've been following the news, it's really all her and all Iranian women right now who are just so brave and are just pillars of example for so many.

[00:45:27] Daniel Weiner: It makes me feel terrible for complaining about literally anything going on in my life when I see stuff like that. So, uh, no, that's an excellent role model and, uh, I think the best answer, uh, we've gotten so far, to that question. 

[00:45:39] I appreciate you sharing that with us.

[00:45:41] Hedy Payghambari: Yeah, of course. Passionate about it.

[00:45:44] Daniel Weiner: I bet. This was awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. It was worth the wait, I would say, worth the, uh, the calendaring to get you on the books. But, no, I appreciate all the insight, and we'll, we'll have to do this again. It sounds like there's plenty more to dive into.

[00:45:56] Hedy Payghambari: Heck yes. And thank you so much for your time, and you always are, you're a wealth of knowledge too, and happy to keep the conversation going.

[00:46:04] Daniel Weiner: Thank you very much.