Daniel: Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk To podcast. I am Daniel Wiener, your host as well as your sponsor. You should talk to pairs, brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies and or freelancers for virtually any marketing or tech need because finding great agencies is a pain.

Super excited today to be joined by Erin Lezzo, who is CMO of the Museum of Ice Cream. Erin, thank you so much for joining. Thanks for having me. We should have had some ice cream, Wallace, but a little, a little early in the day for, for me, but next time. Uh, let's dive right in. First question I ask everybody.

What is an unpopular opinion or a hot take of sorts you have in the marketing world? 

Erin: Um, I believe that a lot of marketing is actually math-based and algorithmic-based. So if this happens, then we do this. If this happens, then we do this. If a customer does this, then we want them to do this. And it actually becomes very algorithmic.

And depending on who you speak to, uh, they may or may not agree with that. 

Daniel: No, I like that. Uh, I usually ask this later in the podcast, but you already, you already hit on something. I'm curious then, do you think that sometimes hinders creativity potentially, or leads you to not want to take some bigger swings if the math doesn't, uh, point in that direction?

Erin: Um, I don't, I think it actually drives more, uh, focused creativity. And a lot of times when you study creative, they say the more guidelines you can put, the more creative you can be. It sounds, um, the opposite of what you think it would be. You would think, oh, this is a wide-open space. But the more you can start to put parameters, the more likely you're able to be even more creative and innovative.

So if you put that math and then layer on those barriers, You're able to innovate at a higher rate and test faster. 

Daniel: I like it. Um, we're going to talk a lot about your experience here in a little bit, but I am curious. Tell us what the Museum of Ice Cream is. 

Erin: So Museum of Ice Cream is a place to unite and inspire through imagination and connection.

We do that through playing like a kid again and eating unlimited ice cream. 

Daniel: I can't, I can't, I can't think of a cooler place to work. 

Erin: It's amazing. So we do the, um, we have four locations. We have Singapore, Austin, Chicago, and New York. And, uh, then this year we're opening Boston and Miami with more to come after that as well.

Daniel: That is amazing. Um, if I stop doing what I'm doing, I'm coming to work for you. I'll be your intern, so. Sounds perfect. You've had quite the journey and set of experiences in my opinion from my research and following you for a while. Lots of food, hospitality, some hotel and resort experience, and agency experience as well, which I find is generally my favorite type of background in having these types of conversations because you've seen Uh, this world from both sides of the coin.

Uh, tell us a little bit about that journey and then something I'm particularly interested. Uh, what, what have you seen in terms of consumer behavior over that time period of, you know, the, the gamut of your career in different verticals? Oh, 

Erin: geez. Um, big question. I was gonna 

Daniel: say, we can, we can do that in chunks.

I know I gave it a lot there. 

Erin: So, I grew up in Illinois and moved out to Vegas, uh, young, right after college. And thinking I wanted to study, like, I had studied acting in school, so I wanted to work in acting. Um, landed in Vegas and just worked my way up. I got a job as a box office supervisor for Bally's Paris Rio.

Moved over into training, um, and then, and HR. And then when the recession hit, I lost my job, um, because you don't need trainers if you don't have employees being hired. And they said, what do you want to do? And I said, I'll do anything. And they go, what do you know about internet marketing? And I said, I have the Facebook.

And so they literally let me start the bottom Caesars corporate. I started as low as you possibly can be on the totem pole. I was the PowerPoint clicker and I just worked my way up and then I moved over to MGM resorts and then palms. And then I decided I want to move out of Las Vegas to raise our children.

Not that there's anything wrong with raising kids there. What was 

Daniel: it like? What was it like living in Vegas? I got it now. 

Erin: I loved it. I mean, I love the weather there. We had a pool. It was lovely. Um, I lived all in different areas of Las Vegas and because I was very career-focused, you could do that. It was very transient.

Everybody's focused on their career. And so, um, after having kids is when I was like, I grew up in a small town, I kind of want something like a little more suburban, um, moved to Dallas where, and Plano where I worked for and let all digital for Wingstop then was recruited over and moved, uh, to be the CMO of Freebirds World Burrito.

And then after that is when I went to the agency side, to Hathaway, which is now Bounteous, to lead the vertical for all CRM and ongoing marketing services, or well, create the vertical. And then was recruited up to Wisconsin to be the CMO of Marcus Hotels and Resorts, which is 21 resorts and 50 independent restaurants.

And then right before working at Museum of Ice Cream, I worked for Del Taco and Jack in the Box as the VP of Marketing Technologies. You're like a 

Daniel: professional athlete. You've been recruited all over the country to take your talents. Yeah, I was gonna say. 

Erin: So, it's been lovely. And so, how has the customer journey or behaviors changed?

Um, I mean, drastically, right? When I first started at Caesars, digital or internet, that's what they called it, uh, was just like, you could email someone and people opened it and people clicked on it all the time, right? You could send them all these emails. It worked so well. Um, you weren't sending texts, you were, uh, targeting, but it was very specific type of buys.

I was buying publisher direct, right? Um, very different. And so as it's evolved, as digital has evolved, We've seen how we target, how we get to the customer change, and it's still changing, right, as of February of this year. It's continuously changing. And what used to be put all your money into Facebook is now changing.

Uh, what used to be put all your money just into Google is now changing. So, uh, the customer is everywhere and it still goes back. And the one thing that hasn't changed is that saying of right place, right time, right message. That stays the same. 

Daniel: Now, I love it. Uh, we have, I have a very A similar experience, uh, at the beginning of my career that I don't talk about a ton.

I worked for Facebook for, like, six months on a super random thing. It seemed like a scam at the time, truthfully. Like, Facebook reached out to me via Facebook. Uh, but after that, and in 2009 or 10, I was, like, the Facebook guy. They were like, let's give Danny, like, internet stuff to do. Like, surely he'll figure it out.

So, uh, I can appreciate that as well. You've made it to the, uh, the pinnacle of marketing now, so it's quite the, uh, quite the journey, I would say. Uh, yeah, I guess so. Uh, my favorite question of the entire pod is for other folks listening who are either in your seat as CMO, or aspire to be a CMO, or leading marketing at virtually any company, what's your best piece of advice to them for I always say how to survive as well as thrive in uh, 2024.

But um, yeah, I'll let you take it wherever, wherever direction you'd like to go. 

Erin: I would say you prepare to be spontaneous. And what do I mean? It means be really flexible, but have a plan. Have a plan, but know that your plan is probably going to go to shit. And so, I say that because we don't know what's going to happen.

Even this year. Like, we went into this year going, Are we going to have an economic recession? Are we not going to have a recession? Are we actually in a recession? Should we be worried about that? Are people going to pull back spending? Oh, it's a political year. What is that going to look like? Are we even going to be able to buy advertising?

Because they're going to buy 11 billion of advertising. So, be prepared. Have a plan, but know that we have to be flexible. 

Daniel: I like it. That's probably gonna be the name of this episode. Prepare to be spontaneous. So I wrote that down for the thumbnail. Uh, most folks I talked to with your title, CMOs in particular that I speak to are getting hit up like 27 times a day, sometimes more.

Uh, literally everywhere. Text, phone, LinkedIn especially. Is that the case for you by agencies and vendors? 

Erin: Yeah, it's definitely overwhelming how many messages I get. 

Daniel: What is your PSA to agencies and vendors? Uh, mine is generally just chill the fuck out, but I'm curious what yours is. 

Erin: Um, I understand. They have a job, I have a job, right?

So, some things that don't work is being mean, right? I have people who are like, I guess you don't want to talk to me. People who are mean? Ugh. I mean, that's a given, but like, it's surprising how many people email you, like cold email you. And they might start with like, hi Frank. And I'm like, well, my name's Erin.

Um, and 

Daniel: that's a good, that's usually a good 

Erin: start. Yeah. And then by the third email, they're like, I guess you don't want to talk to me. Or they go, I have a 10 gift card with your name on it. That's not going to get me to respond either. Right. So what gets me to respond is a short, how you're going to help me or what you've researched about me or my business.

That tells me you're going to help me do something. Um, I do struggle and I'm going to, I'm probably going to, please don't send me hate mail for any reason. 

Daniel: I hope, I hope this doesn't cause any hate mail. 

Erin: I hope so too. But like, I struggle when people send me a message and they're like, you just want to get on the phone and network?

If I had time to get on the phone and network, I would happily do it. But I'm like, I go to bed texting back, trying to text back all the people that message me. So, um, I agree with you on the chill out, but like, tell me what you're gonna do for me, do some research, and I don't know, maybe call me by the right name.

Daniel: Or send you an obscene gift card now. Ten bucks isn't gonna cut it. I hope you now, you're like, Danny, somebody sent me a 50, 000 gift card somewhere. That's not what I 

Erin: mean, but like, It is. It's interesting because I've been in the business so long 

The people that it's harder for me to want to reach out and work with again are people who just drop you when you leave that company. And they just go, oh, you do me no service 

Daniel: Yeah, I posted about this yesterday, actually, I find there's this weird narrative I hear from a ton of CMOs who have gone from quote unquote bigger companies to smaller companies and like certain agencies won't take their calls anymore it'll never not bog on my mind because even in the, even just to show face, you know, or to say face of like, yeah, what?

At 

Erin: Because I've had people, even where I'm at now, where they'll go, Oh, how much budget could you possibly have? And I was like, I don't want to work with you.

Daniel: Fifty million ice creams. What's it to you, pal? So, 

Erin: but that is, again, it goes back to being a good human. engaging with people and you don't have to give me a lot of time but if we just stay connected that helps but when you drop someone like that don't expect to be able to pick them back up when they show up 

Daniel: somewhere else.

I have been in business for a little over three years and it has grown substantially and when people ask I generally joke even though it's the truth is that you just got to like outlast people who are too short sighted and end up being annoying. If you just hang out long enough and reasonably I'm being a hundred percent serious like if I'm just not annoying I know So, there's 50 other people in your inbox sending the 5 gift card and trying to do that.

Erin: So, uh. Build a relationship. Tell me what's going on. Stay top of mind. And when I need that service, that RFP, I'll 

Daniel: think of you. That's the PSA. I may cut it so that it just says that you want big gift cards, but I'll have to talk to my, talk to my editor about that. Maybe we'll do an outtake of that on this.

Uh, I'll let you pick. You want to do a positive agency story or a negative agency story first? 

Erin: Oh god. Let's go with 

Daniel: positive. Alright, lay it on me. What's a positive agency experience you've had in the past and what made it positive? So 

Erin: I, um, similar to what I was just saying about like connecting, uh, and building relationships.

I had an agency approach me and they were very nice people. And I said, I have no need for your product right now or what you're selling. Uh, but I'd love to stay connected. We've built a relationship. If you continue to message me, here's what's gonna happen. I said, I'm not lying, you will stay top of mind in my brain so that when I am ready to do an RFP, I don't know when that will be.

I will think of you and you'll And so, that's exactly what happened. When I was ready to do the RFP, I went, Hey, I know I told you. I remember you, would you like to be in the RFP? They said absolutely, they blew everyone out of the water, and um, didn't take it for granted. And then as we onboarded, we, what I think makes for really good agencies, is when there is an issue, how they solve it.

Because there's going to be issues, everybody's going to have issues. And so when there was an issue, They literally got all the people on the call and said, All right, let's hear you out. And then they went, Okay, let's solve this together. And because we did it and we did it quickly with a sense of urgency for both parties, it smoothed it over and we were able to keep going.

And so for me, that's the positive story is not that there was an issue, but how we chose to solve it and the way they chose to solve it was absolutely the right way. and made me feel important as the client. It made me feel like we were truly partnering together. And that's what I want to see. 

Daniel: Yeah, I think that's like a common misnomer and really important to point out is that there is always an issue, like no agency experience.

Very, very rarely, I should say is 100 percent seamless. There's no hiccup. The internet sucks. It's so complex. Like. There's so much stuff that can go wrong. And yeah, the agencies who figure stuff out. Uh, I think it's interesting, my quote unquote hot take often is that the work doesn't matter and of course the work matters.

What I mean by that is, there's so much stuff that happens prior to doing the work. To your point, of staying top of mind, of not being annoying, like all that stuff. So I think it's interesting to hear when the positive, I ask, you know, this is episode, I think, 38 once it airs. I don't think anybody out of 38 has ever started with the work.

Like, oh, the thing that this agency did turned out incredible. It's like, the process was great. They're, they made my life easier. Like, they generally seemed excited about the work, all that sort of stuff. So, you also can't suck at what you do or you'll get fired, of course. The work is 

Erin: the bar. 

Daniel: Yeah, it's the price of admission.

I totally agree. Let's do, let's do a fun negative one then. I hope, I hope it, I hope this doesn't bring up any, uh, any trauma. 

Erin: Um, no, it was years ago and I worked with this agency and I kept pointing out some issues and I kept, it felt like I was talking into a black hole. What kind 

Daniel: of it? Like relationship stuff 

Erin: or?

Just like turnaround times, uh, missing SLAs, um, like what started as like a little thing turns into a big thing because you're like, Hey, we haven't addressed this. Oh, it happened again. Hey, we haven't addressed this. And then when I did finally. get an opportunity to address it vocally and verbally. They, I was mansplained as to how a process work.

And there's legit nothing I dislike more than being mansplained. Um, as well as being told that like that person had been in the business a lot longer than me. And I was like, okay, um, but here's their contract and here's the SLA. Like, I don't, okay. So it just kind of ended like, I'm not gonna throw a tantrum, but.

It just kind of ended that relationship, right? 

Daniel: Did they try to win it back and smooth it over, or? 

Erin: Um, they tried to like, roll the person off and say like, it was a person issue, not an agency issue. But like, that's your reflection of your agency. Yeah, agencies are made up of people. And it wasn't just one person on that email chain, guys.

So, if that's the case and it was one person, then someone else should have jumped in and been like, how are we solving this? Yeah, 

Daniel: that sucks to hear. Mansplaining is never, uh, never a good thing. Yeah, not a fan. I'm curious, what are you most excited about in the marketing space? We've got a lot of stuff going on right now.

Um, 

Erin: I do like AI, but I'm not going to say AI because I feel like everybody's talking about AI and I don't, I'm tired of talking about it. Me too. I just want to see it used all the time. Do you think 

Daniel: AI, while, while you mention it, I, I don't see anything that cool. 

Erin: That's the thing, like, I think we're all talking about really cool things, but I haven't seen the really cool things, right?

People are like, look, AI can make this picture, AI can do this, and I'm like, oh, that's neat. I said, can AI, like, I want AI to just, like, take 

Daniel: over everything. I want AI to do my invoicing, so I don't have to talk to it. Yes, like, 

Erin: or, I want to be able to go in and be like, scrub the internet and pull this and write this and like, Like, literally be a true personal assistant, because I reached, I looked at some of those AI companies and I was like, it's not good 

Daniel: enough yet.

This is going to be what your new messages are from agencies for the next couple of weeks once this airs. Like, have you heard about this AI? Like, we can do all that. We promise. Here's a 15 gift card. I promise. 

Erin: That's probably true. Now, what am I excited about? I'm always excited about understanding the customer journey and what drives people and this idea that It used to be such a linear journey of like, you see this and you do this and you have this moment and now you're here.

And we are so much more complex humans than a linear journey. And so understanding the true emotions behind it. And because I'm at a brand that's really joyful, right? Like people say, like you sell ice cream. I don't even make ice cream. I sell joy, happiness. I sell the ability to feel fulfilled and feel like a kid again.

And to really understand what drives someone through the door is really exciting, so that's what I get most excited about. 

Daniel: What do you think it is that, uh, ultimately, with the amount of options people have for their leisure time, that really ultimately is the tipping point? I don't know that there's an answer, I'm curious, since that's what you think through 

Erin: all the of it's escapism, right?

So when you think about how crazy our lives are, how intense everything is and everything's a big deal. This idea that you can escape and just play and just be joyful and not have to worry and you don't even get to keep your real name. You have an ice cream name. I have a nice like my emails and I Sure is.

Daniel: Oh, you shouldn't have given that up, Aaron. People are going to start guessing. You have a, you have a tough one to guess. Yeah, 

Erin: there you go. So, um, I do think having a place, a safe place to escape and play, whether it's with your children or with your loved one or with your, Family or friends, whoever it might be, or a stranger for that matter, to be able to actually see someone look someone in the eye and say, Hey, you want to play and just have a joyful time is unbelievable.

Daniel: I think that's interesting too, because I find with the amount of marketers I talk to, there's. Oftentimes, and it's no fault of them, but like, they're thinking through all these complex things and if you boil it down to, like, what you just said, like, people want to have a good time and, you know, escape from their day to day monotony and do something cool with people they like, and if you boil it down to that, marketing probably becomes a little easier or a little less daunting.

You mentioned that you were staying up late, uh, texting in bed to, to catch up on emails and stuff like that. Uh, my, my final actual marketing question I'm always curious of is what keeps you up at night slash stresses you out. So, okay, we already know that it's your inbox, but what else? 

Erin: Um, I'm like a 2 to 3 a.

m. waker up, and it's usually like never just one thing, but it could be like, Is that gonna go? Like, is that planned out? Did I miss that piece of like the campaign journey? Or, um, who's owning that right now? We have a plan for that, right? Cause we just have, I've never been in a business, by the way, where I'm like, Oh, I have plenty of resources and plenty of budget.

And that's never existed in my life. Sure, of course. Does that exist anywhere? No. But. I definitely don't have that, so I think making sure that we are actioning on all the things we say we're going to action on is really ideal. Um, that's usually what keeps me up at night, and then just how we continue to evolve, as well as, I spend a lot of time worrying about my team.

And when I say worry, worry sounds like the wrong word. But like, caring about. And what they're going through. Not just their work life, but their home life. Or their personal life. Because I don't believe that people leave stuff at the door. I believe that makes the human. And so, I can feel if someone's a little off.

And I want to know, what's going on? And, oh, they said this one thing. We should check into that. And do a pulse check with them. I probably worry more than most people. It's an over thinker in me, but, uh, I like to make sure that everybody around me is feeling like their best self when they're, when they're coming 

Daniel: to work.

When you wake up at two to 3am, which I do as well, do you check your phone or do anything though? Or you just wake up? I try not. This is a safe space if you want to admit it. I do sometimes. 

Erin: I mean, I try not to, however, I do because I have a team in Singapore too, and they're up when I'm asleep, so if I happen to wake up at 2am and I pick up my phone and they need something from me, I'm, I'll respond to it.

Daniel: Oh boy. That's dedication. I can't fault you. I think it's a marketing thing. Truthfully, not just the global aspect, every single person I speak to who is in a marketing leadership role has sleep issues and does the exact same thing. Myself included. I, uh, charged my phone across the room so that I'm not tempted.

But sometimes I'm like, maybe I'll just go like, see if that email came in late at night since people work at different hours. It's 

Erin: wild. I think it just depends because like, I worked at a company at one point that I was in charge of crisis management, so my phone would ring if there was an active shooter, a domestic violent, whatever it might be, and it didn't matter if I was sound asleep, I had to drag myself out of bed, and it activated someone from every department onto a line so we could make the calls in real time, and there's people who don't do well in a crisis, I feel like, bring me a good crisis, like, let's go, let's see what happens, um, but I you didn't have an ability to turn off.

The good news is, I have, I do not have those things where I currently am, so I'm not worried about waking up for, um, if someone's life's on the line. Luckily. Luckily. Uh, but it, it definitely put you in a place where you went, I have a responsibility here. That's 

great. 

Daniel: Uh, final marketing question, and then we'll finish with some fun ones.

What makes an agency stand out to you? You know, I know there's a million out there. I have my own opinions of what makes agencies great, of course, but I'm curious to hear when you're looking for a new partner, potentially, what makes an agency stand out? Or what do you look for most? Um, 

Erin: relationship, right?

Are we going to get along? I don't want to work with people I don't like. Chemistry check. like, right? Yeah. Um, bar the work. Is your work phenomenal? Have you worked with people? Do you even understand my business? And then, financially, is, can we afford each other, right? Are you undercutting yourself so much or that you're not going to want to be committed to me or vice versa, I'm stretching myself too much where I'm going to be over expecting what 

Daniel: is possible.

I love it. We'll finish with some fun ones. What was your very, very, very first job growing up? I 

Erin: was a corn detasseler. So you come, come again. . A corn 

Daniel: detasseler. So a corn? Corn like CORN. Mm-Hmm. . Detasseler. 

Erin: Yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. It's a thing. Um, you wear like long sleeve shirts, long pants, boots in the hot dead of summer, like end of July, August in the Midwest.

And you walk through the cornfields and you pull the tassels off of corn so it can continue to grow. And, um, a lot of child labor. And, then 

Daniel: Yeah, is this an HR, uh, thing going on here? 

Erin: I made, I think I made, like, five dollars an hour doing it. And then I would get on a school bus and you'd eat your lunch on this hot school bus without air conditioning.

And then you'd go back through the cornfields. So, I feel like if I can do corn detasseling, I literally can do anything. 

Daniel: That was that's my follow up question is I always ask did you did you take anything from that job to your current role? And I think that's it if you can survive that then Marketing is you're like this job is easy.

There's air conditioning This is great. What would your final meal be? And I hope it's not just corn after that. No 

Erin: I think my final meal would be pizza Pasta like butter noodles and milk duds. Where would the pizza be from? Oh, I really I really like just, like, Jack's frozen pizza. It's like 3. It's so 

Daniel: good.

Interesting. Salt of the Earth. You Midwest people, I like it. I thought you were gonna go deep dish Chicago from Lou Malnati's or something. 

Erin: I am so, like, you're like, she wants buttered noodles and a 3 pizza and some, a dollar of Milk Duds. Done. 

Daniel: That's it. That's, that's the, I think the most inexpensive last meal I've gotten as an answer.

I think that clocks in at about five bucks. So I, I like it. Okay. That's fair. Uh, and then my final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? I 

Erin: think my, a lot of the women I work with, uh, do that for me, but there was, um, Um, the president of New York, New York Hotel and Casino when I was up and coming at MGM.

I just really looked up to her and she's there and, uh, or she's actually at the Palms now, uh, as the president and, uh, her name's Cynthia Kaiser Murphy and, uh, she was this phenomenal leader and she also cared and in 2000 and 89 to be a phenomenal leader who also cared was shocking because a lot of women had to put on this very hard shell.

And she really came through as a joyful, caring, inspirational leader for me. 

Daniel: That's amazing. Love to hear it. Um, thank you very much for joining. What's going on at Museum of Ice Cream? I know it is museum of ice cream dot com for people who want to check it out. But is there any, uh, exciting events or promos or anything you want?

You want to pump 

Erin: while you're here? Sure. So this month we have a couple different things. We're partnering with local black owned ice cream parlors to serve their ice cream. So in Chicago we have Aida's Artisanal Ice Cream, which Aida is from North Lawndale and is unbelievable. And then in New York and Austin we also have ice cream parlors we're partnered with.

We also just launched a partnership with Cardi B's Whip Shops and Cardi B created Whip Shots, which is an alcoholic whipped cream, and so you can come into any museum of ice cream and get, uh, a diamond martini or a, um, whip shake milkshake, which is made with Cardi B's, uh, Whip Shots, which is pretty exciting.

You 

Daniel: didn't, you didn't want to bring her to the 

Erin: pod? No, I, yeah, well, lum, 

Daniel: I'm lum, I'm slumming it with the cmmo. And I could have had, I could have had Cardi B. This is had Cardi B. This is devastating. 

Erin: No, we have a lot of great things going on, so I really encourage, um, anyone who hasn't been, whether it's you're with your loved one, your spouse, it's a great Valentine's Day, uh, event or holiday event.

Um, bring your kids and just play. Just rediscover the kid in you and enjoy unlimited ice cream. Love 

Daniel: it. Awesome. Thank you very much for joining Aaron and we will chat with you soon. Thank you.