Kimberly Bean, VP of Integrated Marketing + Menu Strategy, Pizza + Innovation

Daniel: Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk To podcast. I am your host and your sponsor until somebody ponies up, maybe after today. Uh, You Should Talk To pairs, brands, and marketers for free with vetted agencies and or freelancers because finding great agencies and freelancers is a pain in the ass.

Excited to be joined today by, uh, I would say colleague turned friend, Kimberly Bean, who is the VP of integrated marketing and menu strategy at Papa John's, a longer title than I'm used to, but thank you for joining us today, Kimberly. 

Kim: Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Daniel: We love it. Uh, we'll love the background too.

Is that home? 

Kim: Um, this is my office. So 

Daniel: maybe product, maybe they pay for a sponsorship. Yes. 

Kim: You can get some Ryman in here, some product. Maybe Dolly wants to hang out. I'm 

Daniel: going to email their CMO after this and tell them if they want some product placement, they better pony up. Appreciate that. We will dive right in.

What is an unpopular opinion or a hot take or a gotcha in the marketing world that you have? 

Kim: Um, I think an unpopular opinion, like I think. Marketers like to be splashy and like unpopular. I am more of a strategic marketer. So to me, it's like slow and steady wins the race. And in an, in a world where everybody's moving super fast and there's all these, like, I feel like the boo, boo, boo, like there's all these like smoking guns.

It's like, it's, it's less about that. And it's really, to me, it's like, what is your strategy? Who is your consumer? And really sticking to that is going to set you up for then those big ideas are going to come. You're going to get those other things, but it has to start with like, just Staying true to who you are and staying true to your consumer.

Daniel: I'm curious in a, uh, in the space you're in of, uh, high stakes pizza. How does that Translate, like do you feel a pressure to like come out with some crazy new menu item and things of that nature? All the time. 

Kim: All the time. I mean, like if you, specifically with pizza, you know, um, we're on Air 365. We're talking to customers all the time because it is one of those products that you eat.

When you're happy, you eat. When you're sad, you have a planned occasion or it's a spontaneous occasion. So we're trying to meet all those needs states all the time and being in front of the consumer. But that doesn't mean it should come across like innovation for the sake of innovation to put things out there.

Um, you know, if you go look, Papa John's has had a great track record, you know, in the past two years, I think we put it like 12 innovations and that's not, that's a lot, but it was done in methodical way of understanding what is the need state of the consumer, what are they coming to us For it's pizza, right?

And so you start with why are people coming to you? And then what are they looking for from you? What are the occasions that they have and making sure that you're innovating towards what they're looking for in an occasion and from their products and staying true to that. So it doesn't mean that we're not going to have innovation, but I'm not going to go innovate, you know, 20 steps left or something that they're not looking for just because it's cool.

Goju gang is amazing. Cool flavor, but does it have a place here in pizza or does it have a place? And I'm going to say that. And then you're going to see a pizza go to game pizza next week. As 

Daniel: long as you don't change that garlic 

Kim: sauce. 

Daniel: No, 

Kim: but that's, but that's the core equities. That's understanding what are your core equities?

And so, you know, last year we actually built the, uh, stuff, crust, garlic, Epic stuff, crust pizza, and that's. It's true. It's taking, we're known for dough, we're known for garlic and you merge those two together and you continue to build upon what you're known upon and then how do you bring that to the consumers who are looking for it?

And it was one of the most successful launches we had because it's, again, staying true to your consumer and what are the insights and the benefits for them? 

Daniel: Love it. You've had quite the, uh, career journey instead of experiences, a lot of food stuff. We've got Bloomin Brands, we've got Cracker Barrel and now Papa John's where I think you get to market probably the coolest thing in the world, which is pizza, uh, in my humble opinion.

Tell us a little bit about the journey to get here. And what have you seen in terms of like consumer behavior evolving? I'm generally interested, especially for food, like pre COVID versus post COVID of like how you have seen that change, but tell us a little bit about the journey and the journey. Yeah.

The 

Kim: food world. I feel like you're getting more and more food friends these days, the whole, the whole, every food brand. Well, good thing I've worked for a lot of the food brands in the country, but, um, I love food and it's, you know, I think I. You get to market, well, first of all, it's about food and it's about people.

And those are my two favorite things in the world. And marketing in this industry is doing that. You're bringing food to the people and it's understanding that. And so I don't think I didn't know, honestly, like I didn't grow up under really understanding what marketing was or understanding what that was, but you grow into it and you learn.

And so. My path is actually interesting. I started on the operations side. I'm not a traditional marketer by any means. Um, but I grew up in operations at Outback Steakhouse. I was actually a manager and I was like, man, this is really cool. You can, you know, Bring an experience to people. They may know about it.

They may not understand it, but what's, how do you bring that to them? And how do you, you know, how do you make them want it? How do you crave it? Or how do you even, how does it come to life so that they know about it? Um, and just creating that awareness. And so I fell in love with the, the ability to bring an experience to people that maybe they didn't know about.

Um, and so I went to the home office for Outback Steakhouse and I've had so many different jobs, but everyone, one of my, Best leaders was like, you're checking boxes along the way to continue to evolve yourself and then also being able to bring people with you on that journey. And so I've done things from like, I've Developed recipes at Outback Steakhouse.

And then I've also done consumer insights, you know, to help people understand the path of food on the journey from the consumer standpoint of project manage, putting a new concept into Brazil. Um, and then I've worked in casual dining. I've worked in family dining. I've worked in QSR. I've worked for corporate and I've worked for franchisees, but all of those different experiences have kind of culminated to helping me understand about the business and the culture.

And helping understand how do you make money for the business through marketing, um, which really to me is like the big insight. It's not marketing for the sake of marketing, but in the day we're here to, you know, generate sales and growth for the company and being, have all that past experience helps me to do that.

So, you know, I think when you're asking about how has that changed along the way, I've seen a lot of things. And when I first started, I call it the LTO drug. Um, I feel like all 

Daniel: marketers say that I was like, everybody needs to be smoking. It's like, I've seen a lot of things along the way. I've seen a lot 

Kim: of things, guys, and you have, and it's like, I mean, it's, we're getting up there guys.

It's, but you have. And so it started where. You had a really cool product and there wasn't a ton of people in the marketplace. And so you could just blast that at people, bring something cool new into the product in the world and people would come and get it and you use TV. Right. And so here's your cool steak.

Here's your unlimited shrimp. Here's your, you know, whatever that may be. And people were like, Oh, that's great. Um, But things have changed so much in that because there's so much more competition than there used to be. And then to your point for COVID, it has exacerbated that where like it used to be in pizza, you could get pizza delivered or you could get Chinese delivered.

And now you have all of these third party aggregators, you can get sushi delivered, you can get a statement dinner delivered, you can get a cookie if you want one cookie. I've done it. I was gonna say 

Daniel: don't I feel don't feel called out. No, 

Kim: but I've done it. But those are hitting our occasions too. And so, you know, I'm not you're not just fighting for share among pizza space anymore.

You're fighting for share among eating. Um, and so that's changed the landscape, especially since COVID. What do you think? What do you think about loyalty? I wanted 

Daniel: to stop you think about loyalty, especially in your world? Do you think people are, uh, loyal to their food? pizza provider, I'll say, or do you think everybody's up for grabs?

Kim: Yeah, people have their favorite. That doesn't mean that's who they're going to use. I think actually, you know, Papa John's has great brand loyalty. People love them, but they're not always, you know, they're either not top of mind, uh, either that's due to marketing or a rant, or they're just not the chosen one.

Um, you know, I, I say this, it sounds dirty, but like pizza is promiscuous. Um, we say that around, we're like pizza is promiscuous. This is 

Daniel: a child friendly, uh, podcast. Kimberly, 

Kim: let's 

Daniel: keep it PG. 

Kim: It's true. Um, you know. I'm a, I'm 

Daniel: a pizza slot. I'll say, yeah, anybody can buy me, you know, depending. 

Kim: No. And everybody has probably.

And so depending on what the value, what the offer is, what the value is, who you're with, um, may all choose like where you're going for, for pizza. And so even if you have your favorite, because, you know, your friend that you're with may want something else, or it may not be in the vicinity that you're looking into, or it may not be what you saw on a commercial, you know, there's not necessarily that loyalty.

Daniel: You are absolutely correct. Uh, to that end, what's your best advice to other VPs, CMOs, marketing leaders in general in 2024 in, in your world of food or, or beyond of how to survive essentially. 

Kim: It sounds so basic. I go, it goes back. I know you're going to be like, this is the most boring thing ever. It's just, it's being true to who you are.

It's knowing who you are and it's knowing who your customer is. And it's continuing to provide that differentiation throughout everything that you do. And so I think, you know, for Papa John's, it's we are about innovation. Let's Why my job is so fun, but it's not, again, not innovation for the sake of innovation.

It's bringing quality products at a fair price point that people, you know, love and that, you know, they see value in coming to us for that versus the competitors. Who's just maybe a quick bite or, um, a nostalgic play. So I think it's really, but you have to stay true to that. And it's really easy to get sidetracked.

I think, you know, we can talk about that probably a little bit at some point about All the things out there in the world, and you know what all the different mediums that there are all the different opportunities there are, but it's really if you stay true to. What your brand is, what do they stand for, who your consumer is, and then picking those few and small things, but having those resonate through everything that you do, then your brand starts to stand out, your product starts to stand out, and you can really create that loyalty.

Daniel: I'm curious, then, how do you decide what's innovation for innovation's sake? Like, in the example Pizza or something like that. Like, is it, uh, when you're innovating or coming up with something new where you, is everything based on like a crazy large, uh, data and insights and talking to customers, are you like, this sounds kind of cool and I think we should try it.

Kim: I have like an 80, 20 rule that I've always gone by. Like I I'm very much into data, into understanding who the consumer, like what the consumer's needs are. And like, you know, I hate the stupid saying, like, People didn't know they need an iPhone, right? But, you know, like, we did Ford just to build a faster horse.

So it's understanding the need states that get to that new product or that get to that, that next level for the consumer. Um, so I do think there's a huge amount of data, but, I mean, let's be clear, like, there is innovation out there, and I, I never want data or science to, Um, ruin a good idea. So there is that 20 percent like magic or intuition that's going to, you know, bring us along.

And so I would say, you know, there's some things that we've done out here in our world that are based on the data and the consumer. And then there's, you know, that there's that don't, you need to listen to that guy in the back of your head. That's like, this is a good idea. You need to follow it through.

And it doesn't mean you throw all the process out the window, you put it through it, but, you know, keep with that, that guy, if you're, if you are rooted in your core values, Concept. You're rooted in your strategy. You're rooted in your consumer. There's probably a nugget there that you need to go after. 

Daniel: How quickly do you pull, I'm guessing, uh, definitely not from you, but, uh, if there have been misses, uh, by Papa John's in the past.

There've been misses. How long till you like pull the plug? Like how long do you get before you're like, I don't think this is for us. 

Kim: So I, again, I'm very much about strategy and process. So I have a five stage gate process that we go through that everything goes through. So it may be, I am about failing fast.

Um, you know, so learning what you can learn and then how do you continue to move forward? But i'm also like don't throw the baby out with the backwater What can you learn about that experience that then maybe takes it, you know, you start back at zero and you start again So I think there's the times where things die and gate one or two and then there's things that We get all the way to gate four the consumer says they're gonna like it Operations can handle it and then we get there and it just It doesn't work.

And so it's, you know, having that mindset not to push things through just because you've gotten to gate four and you're like, well, crap, we have nothing else to put on the market right now. And understanding like, that's why it's important to have the process, having multiple items that you're putting through that process.

So then you have the optionality to continue to move and put the puzzle pieces where they need to go. Um, based on. how successful or where things are planning out. 

Daniel: Yeah, I feel like with the reach Papa John's as you learn or you find out pretty fast to your to your point of if something feels like it's working or if it's not working on a national scale.

Kim: You do, but there's always interesting things where like customers say they're going to want it and then, but it's like in a silo. And so like, again, it's like, how do you wait? But then when you get it out there, you didn't understand the trade it was going to take. So they're like, well, this is really great, but it's not going to take away from my normal pizza occasion because I just want a pepperoni pizza on Saturday night with my family.

And so, you know, it is interesting. Um, Even the biggest and best. I mean, I've seen a lot of companies that have put a lot of money behind innovation and it just falls flat because they didn't understand how it worked within their ecosystem. 

Daniel: No, I look forward to that gochujang pizza. Uh, if that's on the, uh, I'll make you one right now.

I mean, 

Kim: like we go to the kitchen, like we, 

Daniel: I do want to come to the kitchen at some point while we're here, putting that into the ether. So, um, my favorite question of the podcast, your title VP of marketing, even though there's some menu strategy on it, Folks I speak to with your title in your role are getting hit up 7 million times a day by vendors, agencies, all sorts of stuff.

Is that the case for you? 

Kim: All the time. And they're not just hitting me up. They're hitting my colleagues up. So like I get the email from them after they talk to me and then they talk to somebody else. Yeah. 

Daniel: Gotcha. Uh, I'm curious if you could give a PSA of sorts to agencies and vendors who want to do business with Papa John's, which has presumably every agency or vendor out there, what would you tell them?

Kim: You know, I think there's two things. I think first do your homework. I mean, I know that everybody is going after everybody and there's a, you know, there's a, there's a lot of business out to be had and it's scrappy and there's more agencies than ever. So, but there's nothing worse than, you know, an agency coming in and pitching you an idea and it just, it's not who you are.

It's not who your consumer is, or it actually conflicts with data that you have. And so, obviously, not everybody has access to all the data, but there's some simple things that you can do to understand, like, just about who the business is. And then the second thing is, listen, like, I think there's so many times where an People, the agencies are trying so hard to show you what they can do and be like, look how great we are and look what we can do for you.

And that's important. And you have to get that across, but it can't come at the expense of understanding who we are as a brand and understanding what I'm looking for. Um, and so I think, you know, taking that some in really, really listening, echoing that back before you go into what your peel, your stitch, or what you're, what you're trying to do.

Daniel: Is there anything somebody can say in an entirely cold outreach to make you take the call? 

Kim: Spell my name right. 

Daniel: That's it? What a low bar. If you're not, if you're not in buying mode and like it's a random Tuesday and somebody's reaching out, is there anything somebody can do to, yeah, make you take the call?

Kim: I think, you know, if they have, if there is an insight in that email that, you know, resonates with who my consumer is and something that, you know, we've, we've, that it's from like a business point of view, I'm more there than. Look who my cool client is that you can work with. Like that, that you're going to get those a ton of times.

And by the way, that's probably going to cost me a lot of money and I probably can't afford it. So, you know, I think for me, it's like finding that insight that, that makes sense for who we are. 

Daniel: You're going to get a Prada bag in the mail from somebody now. I can almost guarantee it. I 

Kim: hope so.

Daniel: I hope so. You'll have to report back. I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID of I would consider you on the big brand category, a brand that is reputable and people have heard of and recognize and stuff like that of moving towards smaller independent agencies who specialize in like one to two things.

I'm curious if that's the case for you on what do you think of that trend in general? 

Kim: I love this trend, actually. Um, I think, you know, there was a time where everything was like bigger and better and the one stop shop and, and that's great, but After COVID, things have become so agile and the marketplace changes so quickly, especially in pizza, that it's having these agencies that specialize in what they do, that have a pulse on what they do and who the consumer are, that can actually bring insights to you.

Um, and they also are able to be more agile. They're more willing to be more agile. I, I, I love having an 18 month pipeline for my products and, you know, for our calendar, but like telling me that we have to like go shoot everything six to nine months out when, you know, in three months from now, there's going to be a new president and I don't know what the whole, you know, economic status is going to be, and that affects pizza very much.

And so I found these, these smaller, you know, agencies to be able to work more nimbly, they also are more personable. Um, you're going to get a more, a personalized experience out of this. They're really listening. They're fighting for your, your attention as well. And so, um, I, I think this is a really neat, uh, time to be in this space and that what you can get for your money with some of these smaller brands, with these more boutique.

I think the thing that I always go back to is who, if you have multiple ones of these smaller, you know, specialty areas, who is, you Pulling them all together. What is your IAT look like that you're now going to say, Hey, this is how these different agencies work together. This is their role. And then how are we, you know, pulling that thread, that common thread through.

Daniel: Yeah, it's funny. I was actually right before this on the phone with another, what I would say, a big brand on the B to B to B to C side, uh, who has a hundred grand for a project and the words out of their mouth, where we went to some of our bigger agency partners and they were quoted 700, 000 and a million, uh, and, uh, And I was thinking in my head, I'm like, I know several people who would foam at the mouth for a hundred grand for this project.

Uh, so yeah, it's always interesting to your point, like with the amount of agencies out there, I tell people for most stuff, like within reason you can align on any budget again, like rooted in reality, like you can't, uh, you know, pay pennies for some stuff, but, uh, there are just so many agencies, like even the term agency has become muddy.

There are so many. Yes. Different types of groups, I'll say, that brands have more options, uh, than ever, truthfully. 

Kim: And I'm actually using, uh, you know, our creative agency is doing some strategy work right now, and so there is that optionality, you know, agency is kind of this, like, weird word that everybody just throws around, honestly, like, oh, go talk to the agency, and you're like, which one?

Daniel: Well, I think it's funny, people, uh, there's like this new trend where people don't want to be called an agency. Or they're like, Oh, we're not an agency or which I find especially funny because when groups tell me that because they want me to send them leads, I'm like, Oh, I only work with agencies. And they're like, Oh, we'll be an agency.

Kim: Weird. We're an agency. Yeah. We're back. 

Daniel: We're back to an agency. Yeah. I feel like we've rebranded. People want to call themselves like consultancy. I posted it all the time. People want to call themselves collectives or consultancies or we're an anti agency agency. I'm like, I don't ever hear from CMOs or VPs.

We're looking for an anti agency agency. You know, they're like, I want normal people who like give a shit is like generally the sentiment I get who are reasonably good at what they do. 

Kim: 100 percent and they can show their value fairly quickly. 

Daniel: I find that I think though, I'm curious your opinion in my world.

I think value is such like, uh, I don't know if I would say it's a totally BS word. I'm always curious because value means different things, different people. And I'm always Who decides the value? Like, I could think something's valuable, you could think something's not valuable, like, it's all over the place.

I think it comes down to, yeah, like aligning on the value first, which I feel so few, they're like, we want to see stuff fast, and everybody just like dives in, and they align on like expectations, kind of, but I'm like, what's value that makes you give us more money in six months is like a common question I'm asking.

Kim: Yeah, no, I think that's, I mean, because it goes to the consumer consumers, like my consumer value is different to different people. Sometimes it's absolute value. I'm like, I want the cheapest thing out there. That's value. Sometimes it's like, it's worth, it's worth what it costs. Right. And it's, what do you get out of that?

And so for, for me, Again, you'll hear me go back to it at the end of the day as a marketer, my job is to make my company more money. I can do that through sales. You know, I can, is it's brand awareness, whatever that there's different ways to make me more money, but at the day, 

Daniel: appearing on prominent podcasts, obviously 

Kim: this is going to change the game and I can't wait, um, for the product pizza to come out, but that's innovation.

That is innovation. They'll be little leather, like it's all being a leather case. It's going to be great. Um, but. It's showing, you know, how are you adding something that I couldn't currently do? So what are you doing that like, the purpose of an agency is like, I'm obviously hiring you because there's either.

A skill set you have that I don't have, or there's bandwidth that you have that I don't have, or there's some sort of knowledge, right? And so how are you providing one of those to me? And how are you adding to what we're doing versus just replacing what we're doing? 

Daniel: No, I love it. I also, like, I agree with what you said.

There's so many people or agencies, I think, who want to do these, like, they want to be your thought partner and these grand things into your point. Like sometimes you were literally just checking a box for bandwidth and that's okay. The money's still green, you know, you're still a partner or thought partner, whatever you want to call it.

But I feel like sometimes agencies like turn their nose to, uh, to stuff like that. They want the bigger, the bigger thing. 

Kim: Right. But I think you start, I mean, first of all, how do you get your foot in the door somewhere? How do you show, I hate saying, how do you show your value? Like, you can still say value.

I don't think 

Daniel: value is like the worst word ever. I just think it's, it's ill defined. Often people just throw it. I want value. As soon 

Kim: as you show you what you're capable of, it's like, I'm going to give you more and you can do more. And by the way, like it's the best thing I do. You know, when any, if I'm a, Employee, I'm going to do my job, but to get promoted or to get more, I'm going to then show you like the other two things I can do.

And so it's like, that's how you, it's added value, right? That you're creating along the way that maybe it wasn't asked for, but like, that's how you can start getting more and building more. And so I think to your point, it's like, it's all or nothing. And everybody wants these grand plans and schemes. And I'm like, sometimes it's not the sexy work that gets the things done.

Daniel: I agree. I feel like we should clip that. That'll be, maybe that'll be the title of this episode. Uh, can you think of a really negative agency experience you have had in the past and what made it negative? 

Kim: I, I sound so boring and I don't have any. You've 

Daniel: only had pop ups. No, 

Kim: no, I, well, I sound boring and I sound like, I'm gonna sound like a whiny rat.

People don't listen to me. Um, but. It was an, it was an experience back, back in the day and we had this great product. Um, we had understood like, you know, what the benefits were to the consumer, what we were trying to do. And then the agency just took, it was a creative agency and they just went this totally different way.

That was one, not who our consumer was. And two, it wasn't, you know, we. It was also out of budget. There's that part of it, but besides the fact shocking, but you know, and we went back and we were having conversations like, well, look how cool it is. Look how, you know, big it is. It's going to get so much attention, but it stopped listening to who our customer was.

And at that point in time, even if, even though it was the right product, the way it got communicated was in act was not showing the benefits to that consumer. And it didn't work, you know? And so I'll get, by the way, as the product innovation, I get, you know, the rap for your product didn't work when we really didn't communicate what the benefits were to the consumer.

And it wasn't perceived as something that they needed, nor was it targeting the right person or the right consumer. That sucks. It does suck. And if you just listen. Not even to me, but listen to the consumer, listen to the data, listen to like, it's just, it's sometimes I think, again, it goes back to agencies who partner with their, you know, with the people that they're working with and are listening and willing to learn along the way.

Um, versus just trying to showcase how great you are. I know how great you are. I already hired you. 

Daniel: If they talk to you enough, you give them the answers to the test. I often say I've had it plenty of times where like, I'll get feedback from a brand of like, Oh, they missed in the pitch because of this. And I'm like, I told them not to do that.

And you told them not to do that. And I'll ask them and they're like, yeah, but we thought, I'm like, I, I get that that could work, but I'm like, percent of the time or something. I don't know where you wow them. I'm like, but why don't you just do what they like? Why'd you do the one thing they told you not to do?

You know, like it's it's bizarre. Truthful. And I'm not saying people miss people miss all the time. I don't fault agencies for Mrs. But if it's like something you're like, well, we didn't we told you not to do that. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. 

Kim: Yeah, when it's like, yeah, but I'm like, okay.

And I get it, you know, they have their expertise and they're there for a reason. And I fully, again, fully respect that. But then there's maybe the, how do you go out into, you know, if we're in the pitch stage or we're in the, you know, the, the category phase, like, how are we, like, what are the different options in and like, show me why you're like, but just give, give, give the customer what they're asking for.

There's a reason, you know, give them what they're asking for first and foremost. 

Daniel: I agree. Can you think of an awesome agency experience you've had in the past and what made it so wonderful? 

Kim: Yeah, it was actually kind of the same thing. So it's more on the media side. Um, having an agency who can again, show their added value, where we They're in charge of buying media.

Great. They're doing those things, but there's a lot of data and power that these companies have when they're when they're when they have this. And so it was actually where we are going through some segmentation work. And they're actually like, if you layered on X, Y, or Z, you could cut the data this way and you could see these additional people.

And we were able to see. Um, another side of the consumer that we weren't able to see internally. Um, and it was because they knew what we were looking for. They had listened to what we were trying to understand and they had taken their own initiative, still did what they needed to do, but then, you know, brought in some additional data points and facts that we didn't have access to.

And then they partner and say, how would you use this? How would you think about this version, shoving it down our throat saying. This is who your consumer should be, or this is how you should target them. And it really has changed the game for how we partner with them. You know, I, we can, um, you know, from having a media agency who can connect with your consumer insights team, or can connect with your IDS team, or can connect with your loyalty team, add so much more value than just, you know.

Um, but it wasn't something that they said they were going to go out and do. It was just this listening to the need States and then providing optionality and 

Daniel: those pieces. Proactivity. Proactivity. The most common thing I hear from brands firing agencies lack of proactivity, and they got too comfy. 

Kim: Yeah.

And so I love that when people are, you know, You gotta do what you need, you know, what you signed up to do, but how are you helping, you know, how are you helping think through or how you, how are you, how are you helping us look through the ahead of the curves that we don't know are coming? 

Daniel: I talked about this on LinkedIn yesterday.

Uh, if you stick to only what is in your scope. Rigidly, it is a recipe to lose clients, which piss people off often when I say that because they're like, well, they got to pay for more. I'm like, I get it. But there's a million other things that don't land in a scope. And they largely focus around proactivity of bringing new ideas and doing all the stuff that doesn't land in a scope that you're not being paid for that keeps you around for a long period of time.

Kim: I mean, I don't want to reduce it to being this simple, but an agency is an extension of your team, which they should be. Hopefully they feel like they want to be right. Like every time everybody, everybody's like, we want to feel like you were an extension of you. Right. But if I go ask, you know, one of my full time employees here to do something that's out of their scope, they don't tell me, no, they're like, okay, well, maybe I have to move this or we'll do this.

It's like, it's how you grow within a company. It's how you grow your partnership together. 

Daniel: You're, you're, you're talking about all my latest LinkedIn posts. Yeah. You have to build. Maybe I might just 

Kim: read, maybe I just read your LinkedIn. Throw me a like every now and then Kim. 

Daniel: Uh, the, I think agencies have to build in a layer of flexibility into their scopes, because all I hear.

From folks in your position and marketing leaders in general is our business Changes so frequently and if every time I change something we have to have a grand like yes Come to Jesus or scope meeting that gets scheduled a week out like we lose time and like I just don't have the patience for it Like and they're not it's not that they're opposed to Paying more mood.

They're like, yeah, I just need them to do it And like, we will figure it out if we're actually partners and stuff like that. But like having a big car, Oh, we scope doesn't have this, or like we scope for three and now we're doing four, you know, like brands just don't have time for that anymore with how fast stuff moves.

And often like what you drew out in a scope on day one is not what you're doing exactly to the T 60 or 90 days in. So it's hard. 

Kim: It's also may not be relevant, like, anymore, you know, I think I feel for agencies, 

Daniel: it's hard for agencies to I get it like the ideal client, I presume for an agency coming from an agency is the brand that doesn't change their scope adheres exactly to what you scope for and the engagement only grows.

It doesn't contract, which is never the case, you know, like every sport changes for the most part. 

Kim: Agreed. 

Daniel: What are you most excited about in the marketing space at the moment? That's not AI. I keep hearing, uh, AI. So give, give me, give me something else. What are you most excited about? I mean, AI 

Kim: is cool. I mean, I can tell you about a cool, like, yeah.

But, um, Man, I'm excited. Actually, this, this getting back to innovation. So to your point, like COVID shrunk menus, like from, if I think about from a, from a product standpoint, it shrunk because everything was about, you know, you didn't have supply chain or people were really stressed. And so it was this limited budget that people were spending.

And so it was like about, how do you can make consistency? And now people are starting to creep back out. Customers are starting to, you know, want to be wowed again, even though it, but it's a twist because there's Yes. Intense need for value. The economy is still not great, but they want these experiences and they're asking and they're craving for these experiences.

And so I'm super excited for where I see these companies are going who are finding this, um, innovation within value or innovation within the everyday. Um, and I think that's That's super exciting versus, you know, like the big one offs or whatever. Like, and I think the exciting thing is how the, how do you, how do you market that when that may not be the main traffic driving need, but that is still very important to a large amount of consumers.

Daniel: Love it. What keeps you up at night from a marketing standpoint? What stresses you out? 

Kim: I think, I mean, the sound is consumers have more choices and more mediums. And it's a really good question. Because I think it comes down to the most important thing, which is, um, how do you find the right product that goes to the right consumers at the right time through the right channel?

Um, and that becomes overwhelming. Uh, very quickly. Um, and so I think, I think for me, it's how do you, making sure that you're hitting all these little needs states that, that, that are important, that are becoming more important, but you're not taking the eye off the prize of, of who we are. and it gives me.

A lot of anxiety that I missed something or that we like, you know, like we missed these five boxes because now every time you launch a program, you're not just talking to loyalty. You're talking to CRM. You're talking to social. You're talking to tick doctors, five socials. There's it's all in. It's it's overwhelming.

Daniel: I think the job of the food marketer not to, uh, you know, stroke. Your ego is the hardest job Or vertical potentially, because like, if you tell me right now, I'm talking to pop, I'm like, Papa John's sounds really good. I would do like terrible things to a pizza right now. But then if you're like, Oh, like, what do you think about sushi?

I'm like, well, that sounds good too. And you're like, well, what about Mexican? I'm like, I would also love a quesadilla. You know, it's so competitive and so tight, like where I'm at when I'm hungry. And like, I'm not saying that marketing doesn't help of course. And you need to do it. But like, there's so many other things.

Kim: Well, pizza's commoditized. Like I hate people hate when I say, but it is, it's a commodity. Like it's something that you get when you need to eat, but it's also something you get when you want to eat. And so, but to your point, like marketing, like how do I show up on third party? Like there has to be marketing, there has to be, like, we have to think about that to be competitive.

You can't just even be on DoorDash or be on Uber Eats. There's now, there's marketing that is associated with that. There's, you know, communication. So, um, it is overwhelming to be in all those spaces at all those times, but also being at the mercy of, People want comfort. People think most like I came from Cracker Barrel, you know, and people were like, Oh, comfort is chicken and dumplings and it's pancakes, but comfort is also fresh food.

So it is sushi. It is tacos. It is salads. And so pizza is 

Daniel: definitely a comfort food for me. Pizza is the number 

Kim: one comfort food. Just so you know, 

Daniel: is it based on like data of people? That is 

Kim: data. That is facts. I think that's 

Daniel: because if I'm, uh, if I'm having like a bad day or I'm like Upset. I'm like, I just want a fucking pizza.

So give me pizza. 

Kim: It's that's the insight. That's like pizza is what you get when you celebrate with your friends. Like who doesn't want a pizza party? 

Daniel: How self deprecating? I'm like, when I'm depressed, 

Kim: when you're, but yeah, so when you're happy, you want pizza, but when you're sad, you want pizza and there's actually like, there's like, there's, it's so funny.

One of our agencies actually brought us this data. That's like when you're sad, people want sushi when you're sorry, when you're happy, people want sushi when you're happy. People want, like, nobody wants. Sad sushi, but people want sad pizza. 

Daniel: Yeah. I think that's accurate. If I'm sad, I want pizza or like dirty Chinese food.

Yeah. 

Kim: So, I mean, that's part of the human needs state of pizza. Like, you know, and so, um, the, the companies that are going out and that are like really hitting on that and making sure that, you know, people understand that and they're hitting that emotional need state of pizza. So when you're sad is like.

It's brilliant. 

Daniel: Love it. 

Kim: People always like, were like, oh, show everybody in these happy pizza occasions. But I mean, if I just wrecked my car and I'm having a shit day, I'd probably gonna go get a pizza. 

Daniel: Love it. Well, I've never 

Kim: wrecked my car though, with Let's be Fit. 

Daniel: That's good. I love it. Uh, we'll finish with some fun ones.

I think I know the answer to the first one 'cause you already said it. What was your very first job? Was that blooming? 

Kim: Are we gonna say like, first professional job or like first job? No, like back in, back 

Daniel: in the day. 

Kim: Okay. So my first job was actually at a daycare. 

Daniel: Okay. 

Kim: And if you know anything about me, I didn't have kids till much later in life.

So I don't really enjoy children. And yet I chose this as my first job to take in high school. Did it 

Daniel: prepare you for what you're doing now in any regard? Patience, maybe? 

Kim: Patience. Yes. Lots of patience. 

Daniel: That's that's 

Kim: that's about it routine. 

Daniel: Uh, since we're talking about food this whole episode Outside of Papa John's because of course that would be your final meal.

What would your final meal be? 

Kim: I'm gonna sound like an old school dude, but I I can't like a hungry 

Daniel: man. What are you? 

Kim: Yeah Yeah, I would like a hungry man. No, um I would love like a good bottle of red wine with an amazing ribeye like medium rare And like some potatoes. Like that sounds so like I need this decadent gourmet meal.

When I go 

Daniel: out, we're very similar. I would do the fattiest ribeye I could find. I would do a sushi boat. And if it's my last meal, if I'm being honest, I don't think I do the wine. I would do like an obscene amount of diet Coke. Cause that's like my guilty pleasure. 

Kim: No, it's fine. But I would also ask you to go to serendipity and get me a frozen hot chocolate.

Daniel: Okay. I don't know what I would do for dessert. A Dairy Queen Blizzard, potentially. 

Kim: What kind, though? This is, this is, this is actually a very important question. 

Daniel: Peanut Butter Cup, always. 

Kim: That's the only answer, just so we're clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Daniel: Bye. 

Kim: If you had said anything else, I'd just end it right now.

And I would tell you, you can't play this podcast. 

Daniel: Good. Well, you've already signed up for it, Kimberly, so I'd use it anyway. It's just FYI. 

Kim: Now Dairy Queen's going to use this as data. 

Daniel: This is how I get all the, all of the brands. I help, I just, I'm like, look what I have on you guys. So I'm like, give me all your business.

Uh, my final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? Yeah. Don't say Casey. 

Kim: Um, Casey Terrell has been a mentor of mine. He, uh, he's a great dude. Um, but, um, I am full of cliches in this conversation. You're going husband or parent? 

Daniel: It's gotta be, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're 

Kim: Hot husband is not.

He's great. Love you, Tim. Um, 

Daniel: Tim's hot. I'll give it to you. I met Tim for the first time. Good 

Kim: fun guy. Um, but it would be my mother and I come from a, uh, single household. She raised me, um, growing up with my sister. She was a teacher, so she was always about putting people first. Like, she just loved people again.

But she Always wanted to continue on herself. So even though like I was always playing softball, I was in musicals or doing whatever, she still went and got her master's on her own. Um, you know, and she continued, she always wanted to evolve and make herself better. And that's, you know, as I talk about like checking the boxes and continuous, you know, Continuous improvement.

Like I'm like Kaizen over here. Like it's, it's, that's how I think about, you know, my job and my personal life and everything is like, how do you continue to be better, but also not sacrificing the people around you. And I think that's also a good thing about marketing. It's like, it's, how are you, you know, how do I continue to get better?

How do I continue to think differently? But how am I also doing it for the end result is the customer. 

Daniel: Love it. That's awesome. Makes total sense. What's, uh, going on on the Papa John's menu at the moment? Any promos or anything you'd like to pump? This thing gets hundreds of thousands if not millions of downloads.

Yeah! Shoutouts! What do you want? What should people be eating? 

Kim: First of all, my, my favorite thing on the menu right now, and you, it's not on the top of the menu, but there's this, uh, New York style, crispy cuppy, Roni. It's the little cuppy charred pepperonis with, 

Daniel: uh, curl up. 

Kim: Yes. Like they're delicious. It's on that New York style crust.

And then it has this delicious Rosa sauce. Like it's chef's kiss, like legit. You need to go get it. Yeah. There's a few more months on that. Uh, the people, what's it called? The crispy cup. Yeah. New York style, crispy cuppy 

Daniel: Roni. New York style. Love marketing, you know? 

Kim: I mean, how else are you going to sing about it in a song if it doesn't, if you can't?

Daniel: Yes, I will. I always, for every, um, brand I either help with an agency search or who does the podcast, I go take an egregious picture with their food, so. 

Kim: I love that. I mean, if you want to be a little more specific. Fun. Uh, the cheesy burger pizza is also around right now. Um, back by popular demand. 

Daniel: Okay. I feel out of those two, the crispy cup of roni sounds more interesting to me.

I'm a pizza simpleton. I don't want to deviate. See 

Kim: you and you and most people, 80 percent of people, one topping pizza pepperoni. 

Daniel: Cause if you put too many, if you put too many toppings on the pizza becomes too heavy and it droops and it becomes mush a little bit. 

Kim: What's your, what's your pizza crust style?

Daniel: New York style is my preferred, um, or like a tavern style. Very thin crust. Yeah. 

Kim: Okay. Noted. See customer research right here. 

Daniel: I'll give you that one for free for doing the podcast. Thank you for joining us. This was awesome. You're wonderful. Uh, everybody go get Papa John's and, uh, we will chat with you soon.

Kim: Thank you. Appreciate it.