(Final Video) Mark Huber, VP of Marketing, UserEvidence, "Trust. Your. Gut."

Daniel: Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk To podcast. I am your host as well as your sponsor until some big brand ponies up some big bucks. Maybe after today, You Should Talk To pairs brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies and or freelancers because finding great agencies is a pain in the ass.

Super excited today to be joined by Mark Huber, who is the VP of marketing at User Evidence. Mark, how are we? I'm doing well. How are you doing? We were just chatting about Chicago and a Friday day Cubs game. So, uh, yeah, I, uh, you live in the best state or the best city in the U S uh, covered in snow, in my opinion.

Mark: Uh, I love it. Most people haven't been here before, so they don't, uh, give glowing endorsements like you just gave it. 

Daniel: Well, maybe Chicago will sponsor me, 

Mark: but, uh, 

Daniel: no, we will, uh, we'll dive right in before we get to it. Tell everybody who is unfamiliar, uh, what is user evidence and what do you guys do? 

Mark: Yep, so we help companies, specifically B2B software companies, create customer evidence in the form of case studies, testimonials, competitive intel, ROI stats.

Uh, anything that has to do with real proof points, uh, and we get those from your end users, the most believable people, your customers. 

Daniel: Gotcha. Who's an ideal customer for you all, if anybody's listening out there? 

Mark: Uh, anyone that's at a, I'd say a B2B mid market enterprise, uh, SaaS company. Uh, our strongest, I'd say, kind of sub industry within SaaS is probably Cyber, just because those companies are very hesitant to go on the record, uh, whenever they're sharing success stories.

Daniel: Awesome. Love to hear it. Well, we will get into the fun stuff now. Uh, what is an unpopular opinion you have or a hot take of sorts in the marketing world? Unpopular opinion, the spot, the spicier, the better. We don't get enough viewers, uh, to, for you to worry about your career or anything. So you can, you can, you can give the real, uh, the real ridiculous stuff on this 

Mark: one.

Um, I don't care about UTM parameters. I don't think that's really like that spicy, but somebody reached out to me the other day and was like, Oh, you should add UTM Web analytics in general is just, it's never going to be perfect. So I try not to stress about it too much. And perfect example is just how much is lumped into the wrong traffic buckets.

So, uh, I'm a big believer in quantifying what you can quantify, but, uh, when it comes to like traffic and UTM parameters in general, and, and really a lot of things in marketing, I try to blend data with the gut feeling, because gut is, uh, usually where you want to, uh, rely on. 

Daniel: I pro For anybody who listened to my last episode, they're gonna think I prompted you.

I interviewed, uh, I posted it yesterday, um, Steph Hoppe of Casey's, uh, if you're familiar with Casey's in the Midwest. You're not? 

Mark: I'm not. What is it? Oh my 

Daniel: goodness. They're, uh, Convenience store esque, uh, like 3, 000 units. Uh, there's one like 10 minutes outside of Chicago. Convenience store pizza. Yes. She talked about the same type thing, about how she goes off and does it.

Now that you say 

Mark: this, that was the first thing that came to mind. I just only see them on road trips. Not so much in Chicago. There you 

Daniel: go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, Steph talked about, uh, You know, trusting her gut as well. And, uh, you know, people focus on data too much. Attribution is one of the most common things I see as well.

People obsessing 

Mark: with 

Daniel: it's made up, like literally you got to go off vibes. That's the, that's, that's what works better. I'm with you. You spent most of your career, as far as I know, in the B to B space. A common theme I hear more, uh, more so lately than ever, but over the last, I don't know, decade or so, is that B to B brands struggle with being boring and how to stand out and kind of a seam of sea of sameness.

Uh, do you have any opinions on that? Or what do you think of the B to B marketing landscape in general? 

Mark: Yeah, I think a couple things come to mind at first. I think the first thing is yes, that's true I think it's kind of trendy to to say b2b doesn't have to be boring but I do think most marketers are pretty boring in the b2b world and I think part of the reason why they're so boring is because most of them have never worked in a Environment where they truly have like freedom in the wiggle room to take risks and be creative So I think That's why B2B in general has gotten so boring is because there are very few execs who allow for just risk taking like that.

Like that was one of the things that I had vetted in my interview process. What is it? Uh, so that would have been like May of 23 when I, um, was interviewing here at user evidence. And I wanted to make sure that if we really want to stand out or the CEO wants to stand out, like let's. Really vet that and make sure that he truly wants to let his marketing team do that.

Daniel: I love it I think it's okay to be boring as long as you're consistently boring Well truthfully because I think consistency over everything if you're gonna be boring do it for the long haul and keep hammering the same message But you can't be boring in the in the short term 

Mark: So there's two things that I have in response to that.

One, I'm all about consistency, so I could not agree more with that. But two, some industries like sub industries within B2B are boring industries and sometimes the audiences don't want that. So it really depends on not what you want to do as a marketing leader or what your marketing team wants to do.

Kind of depends what your audience responds well to. And if you're in a very boring, uh, dusty, old, like heavy industrial or manufacturing industry, like they might not want something exciting. So you kind of have to really focus on your audience first. 

Daniel: Yeah, I agree. I think being boring is. Is okay as well.

Uh, the other common thread or statement I hear is that we're being asked to do more with less. Uh, what's your best piece of advice for other marketing leaders in 2024? As we move into 2025 on how to do more with less or just a pushback to that? Honestly. 

Mark: Yeah, I think my advice would be to stop saying do more with less.

 I think for any advice that I would give to other, you know, first time marketing leaders or B2B marketers in general, instead of just saying yes to requests that come in from your leadership team or from other functions, try to understand like the why.

And, uh, the how of that request and just feel free to push back a little bit once you get them to unpack why they're suggesting that you do certain things. Because oftentimes if you do that, you'll get them to think a little bit more. And the person who's making the request might actually say, you know what, now that we've talked about it, this isn't that important anymore.

Daniel: Yeah, I think that kind of coincides with your point before of good leadership teams and, you know, CEOs empower their, uh, teams to be able to feel comfortable to say those types of things and push back rather than just giving in and doing the short term request. 

Mark: And it's uncomfortable at first. It feels weird.

And I think the only way to get around that is just to get more comfortable saying no, uh, and doing that more regularly. There's a respectful way to go about it. You don't have to be a dick every time that you say no. Uh, even though sometimes I'm sure there are requests that come through where you want to, you know, stand tall right away and just say no, but it gets easier with more reps.

Daniel: No, I like it. Uh, my favorite question of the entire podcast. In my experience, people with your title, VP and CMO especially, second you get that title, everybody assumes you're just sitting at your desk with a pile of cash, ready to dole it out to vendors, agencies, freelancers, and all that sort of stuff.

Are you getting hit up like 7, 000 times a day across every single medium by vendors and agencies? 

Mark: Yeah, I mean, why I'm shaking my head now is I took this gig in July of 23 and then we announced our Series A in September of 23. Even 

Daniel: more money to spend. 

Mark: And some of the outreach that I'm still getting a full year later after we announced our Series A is, Congrats on the funding.

It's like if you're using funding as your hook to get somebody's attention, you know, it's not going to work, but yes, my inbox really is a mess. And, uh, there's a lot of bad outreach out there, but I will say if somebody has done their homework, even if I'm not in the market for, you know, what they're selling, or I'm not really feeling the pain for what their solution solves for, if I can see that they took the time to truly personalize something, Hey, I saw you went to IU or Hey, I saw you also live in Chicago.

Do you like deep dish pizza? Like I will take the meeting with them because I respect how the game is played. 

Daniel: Do you like deep dish pizza? 

Mark: Not really. It's so it's funny. I was just in a way, I'm 

Daniel: a New York pizza guy. Yeah. 

Mark: Well, so this is relevant. I didn't think we would talk about this, but I was just at a wedding this weekend and the groom is from Ottawa, Canada.

Um, and his friends were all there. And his friends had never been to Chicago before, so they were, you know, said that they had went to Lou Malnati's and asked about our thoughts on, uh, deep dish pizza in general. And I was like, I don't really think it's that amazing. And if I could eat one thing for the rest of my life and have no health issues, it would be a slice of, uh, New York cheese pizza.

I would never get tired of it. 

Daniel: I agree. Yeah. I feel like dying after a deep dish slice. It's like a brick in my stomach. 

Mark: Yes. Agreed. 

Daniel: Um, I'm shocked. You didn't think we'd talk about pizza. That's hurtful on a personal front, but, uh, here we are. Uh, you brought up an interesting point that I actually find counter to most marketing leaders.

I'm curious just to dive in a little further. Most people I talk to. The PSA to agencies is like, uh, chill out a little bit, but yeah, do your homework. I'm curious, you mentioned that you'll take calls with agencies, vendors, even if you're not in market for that solution. Um, what is the way that like, um, outside of a vendor called an agency can stand out if you're not in market for other than obviously doing the homework, but what's the message that kind of like pings like, yeah, maybe I should listen to what they have to say.

I'm curious on the agency front. 

Mark: Yeah, I would say so. I'm glad you caught that because I would, uh, re clarify that I tend to not take a whole lot of calls with agencies that I'm not actively in the market for. And when I say I tend to not take a lot of calls like I can maybe count the top of my hand on one hand how many times I've taken a call with an agency that I wasn't actively looking for.

I more so do it with technology vendors. I'm not a, I came from a consulting background, so I'm not from the school of thought that says you buy a tool and the tool is then your strategy. Like you need to have a strategy and a process first and try and go at it manually before you start looking at tools.

But I'd say from an agency perspective, the few times that I have taken calls, uh, they really have looked at something that I'm actively doing, or my marketing team is doing. And given me some sort of audit of something that truly moves the needle and something that I care about, not like an audit of, you know, Hey, I see you're not ranking on page one of Google for these search terms.

Uh, it's more so like, Hey, you know, your ad campaigns are using X, Y, Z settings and you're wasting this many dollars and yada, yada, yada. So if you're willing to give away something of value first, and it's worth it, Truly valuable. I might be open to taking a call with your agency. 

Daniel: That's fair. You're going to get a million of those now after every, uh, I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID of agencies or brands moving towards smaller agencies specialized in one to two things versus being open to a more full service offering.

Do you have any opinions on that? Do you agree? 

Mark: Yeah. So it's funny because I've worked at an agency. I was the founding employee for a, basically like a B2B. like digital agency for mid market companies in Chicago and Midwest. So I kind of, uh, let's see, that was a while ago. That was from 2014 to 2017 and we did a lot of things.

We didn't really do any of them particularly well. And I think for me, what I try to hire for, you know, whether it's an agency or a freelancer, I hire for skills that I don't have in house and I'm looking for specialists. And I think I'd rather pay somebody, you know, a little bit more, um, For their hourly rate that I know is truly best in class at what they do because they're probably going to get the work done or whatever the project is done in less hours and I'm paying them for their expertise.

Daniel: How do you feel about category expertise is a common question. Uh, I'm asked about by B2B marketing leaders in particular. They want somebody who. I joke essentially has worked with their two competitors. I'm curious, does category expertise matter to you at all when you're looking for answers or agencies?

Mark: No, I wouldn't say category expertise does because what if, you know, um, the two other direct competitors in your category, like what if they're not doing things, you know, particularly well, they might be a little bit ahead of where you are right now, but I feel like you like to get that variety of people who have worked in other categories and bringing things that they've learned to your.

Um, category also, you're just going to do the same exact things that your competitors are doing, and that's probably not going to push you ahead. 

Daniel: Yeah, I tend to agree. Um, I think also it's just harder to find the more specific you get on the ask. But, um, can you think of a really great agency experience you've had in the past and what made it actually so great?

Mark: Yeah. What would be the first one that comes to mind? I mean, I just signed a, this perfect example. I think I signed it. Monday, I think it was Monday of this week. I signed a renewal for my fourth year in a row, uh, with a creative agency that, uh, was their first customer at my previous company. And I was not aware that my, uh, annual contract expired.

So between the GM of the agency telling me that, And then us having a signed and countersigned docu sign for next year's renewal. That was done in about 29 minutes. And I think that's just, you know, based on my experience with them and, um, them being really an extension of my team. I have not had a creative team for the last four years yet.

I have, I would say one of the best in class B2B creative agencies that I work with at my disposal and they're super responsive. They just iterate so quickly, which is really important for us as speed. And, uh, they. Act, you know, just like they're a part of our marketing team. 

Daniel: That's awesome. Uh, can you think of a really negative experience you've had?

Uh, what made it negative? 

Mark: Yeah, this seems to be kind of a theme is that at smaller agencies and sometimes even larger agencies, I'd say maybe it's more larger agencies now that I think I'm thinking out loud. You get wowed by whoever the, you know, big shot is at the agency who's pitching you. And then what usually happens is you get handed over to the people who are going to be running your day to day account and your junior account manager.

And you get really excited and oversold in the pitch. And then once you're handed off, you get a completely different level of service. So I've found that primarily with, agencies. There's two that I can think of that I've, uh, worked with years ago and, uh, it was not fun. We ended up getting rid of them pretty quickly into the relationship.

Daniel: Yeah, I talk a lot, especially on LinkedIn, about agencies. There are some agencies who are good at pitching and selling and there are other agencies who are really good at doing the work and it's really hard to find agencies who are good at both. Uh, yeah, that is probably, I would say that's the most common, uh, Uh, reason I hear from brands who are letting go of agencies and asking me for new is that they were, uh, given, given the B team or given the C team or something like that.

I'm generally advising brands asked to speak to the actual people who are doing the work, uh, in the pitch and telling the figurehead, like, you can be in the room, but I don't want to hear you talk like, uh, once you get kind of to the end of the process. I'm curious, what are you most excited about or bullish on in the marketing space in general, outside of AI, I'll say, since I hear that, uh, I hear about that.

Mark: Um, yeah, I would say I'm messing around with AI more than I ever have, uh, I would say in the last probably three ish months. Uh, outside of that, I would say, Short form video is the thing that I'm most excited to continue to experiment with mostly because I think the LinkedIn algorithm has no idea what it's doing right now with short form video.

So I think there's a huge opportunity in the early days, uh, for companies that really start to experiment. Uh, so now is the time to really try that out. 

Daniel: Are you all trying TikTok or not yet? 

Mark: I think we might at some point. I'm trying to own two channels really well and, uh, organic LinkedIn and then email.

Trying to not spread ourselves too thin. So maybe we'll get to that at some point. But. Um, this is the first time where I've really been given the autonomy to, to focus on two channels and do them really, really well. Instead of the shotgun approach where you're on, you know, seven or eight channels and you're not really doing any of them.

Well, 

Daniel: yeah, I was me when I launched my business. I thought I had to be everywhere. Now I, uh, LinkedIn and podcast as are my, my two channels. Uh, what keeps you up at night or stresses you out from a business standpoint or, or marketing standpoint? 

Mark: Yeah, I would say how we're pacing on, um, Pipeline creation, um, specifically on opportunities generated and then qualified pipeline, those are really the, the two most important metrics for our team right now, and then how we're going to, you know, find, uh, more talent, uh, before we need to hire for, you know, the particular role or find that freelancer agency.

Uh, well before I need it so that when the time comes, I already have a relationship with whoever I want to work with. 

Daniel: Well, now you got me, Mark. Answer, answer that question real quick. Uh, what is one thing you want people to take away from this podcast about user evidence, whether they're in market or not?

Mark: Yeah. Um, that's a good question. So we're coming off of product launch of about two and a half hours ago. So I think for us, we're trying to take on a few different old, like boring and really expensive ways of thinking. One of which is industry analysts. Uh, I think, you know, Gartner is doing pretty well right now, but Forrester is not.

And I think there are, uh, new emerging technologies like user evidence that are going at these, uh, old expensive, sorry, expensive dodgy industries, uh, that can do it. and at a significantly lower cost, um, so just because we don't have the brand recognition of like a Forrester or Gartner, uh, we're working with some really impressive B2B companies right now that are really established in their own, uh, respective industries and they're taking a chance on us and seeing really strong results.

Daniel: Uh, we'll finish with some fun ones here so you can get back to tracking your product. I appreciate you doing this on product match day. Uh, what was your very first job? 

Mark: Very first job. So I swept the floors of a 85 year old family woodworking business in my family that I do not work at. And uh, I did that for a couple of years in the shop, uh, until my dad.

Basically told me that I was causing like too much chaos in the shop doing stuff that was not at all helping Their day to day business and he was like get out of here 

Daniel: any takeaways from that job that you see in your job today Being being uh open to doing even the job of sweeping the floors. Uh, yeah.

Yeah evidence 

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of cliche but like, you know, I was the my great grandfather started the the company Uh, when he came over from Germany and I was technically the, uh, the owner's son, um, but I was still doing, you know, the smallest jobs in the actual working shop and I think I still do that today.

Like I was in different tools this morning doing stuff that a usual VP of marketing wouldn't do. So I think for me, I just try to pride myself on working hard and not being too big for any of the jobs that you used to do yourself when you were first getting into marketing earlier in your career. 

Daniel: I think I know the answer to this one, but what would your final meal be?

Is it the cheese pizza slice for New York or 

Mark: what would it be? I would say 

Daniel: that can be your appetizer. It's a, 

Mark: no, probably not. I have, I'm a steak and potatoes kind of guy. So I'd probably go to one of the steakhouses in Chicago and overeat and then have to get carded out. 

Daniel: What kind of steak? 

Mark: Uh, I would probably go either as a New York strip or a filet, um, from a couple different places in a West loop here in Chicago.

Daniel: Okay. And my final question, who's somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? 

Mark: Ooh, I, the first one that comes to mind right now is, uh, Kyle Lacey. So I've been, um, meeting with him for almost a year at this point. And he a guest of the 

Daniel: pod. 

Mark: Yeah. And, uh, he's just an awesome person, uh, first and foremost.

And then I see, I think he does too. Uh, I see a lot of qualities in myself that I think, uh, he exhibits as well and he sees a little bit of him and. So it's a great relationship and he's been like wildly helpful for me as a first time VP of marketing. 

Daniel: You, uh, maybe we'll do a, I'll do a mashup of your answers versus his.

I can't, he was an early guest. So I can't remember a hundred percent, but we'll see. I'm 

Mark: talking to him tomorrow. So, uh, hopefully 

Daniel: you're going to be like, I was on this guy's pot. He's like, who is that guy? 

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll put him on the spot. 

Daniel: I appreciate it. But no, we appreciate you joining. Thank you so much.

Hope the product launch goes well. and yeah, we will chat with you soon.