Daniel: And welcome to another episode of the, you should talk to podcast. I am your host, your sponsor, your everything Daniel Weiner. Uh, this podcast is brought to you by, you should talk to, you should talk to pairs brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies and or freelancers because finding great agencies is a pain.

Super excited today to be joined by T. R. Wilhoite. Who is the VP of e commerce at casemate TR. Thank you for joining us. Great to be here. Thank you also for joining us during holiday season as an e commerce and a direct to consumer portion of your brand. So, uh, appreciate that as well. Oh yeah. Well, I, I kind of need a break, I think from the madness.

So love it. Well, we can hang out here as long as you'd like. Cause it's a, it's a safe space. Uh, but we will dive right in. What is an unpopular opinion you have in the marketing world? Or a hot take of sorts? Oh gosh, you mean narrow it down? Yeah, these are usually like 30 or 45 minutes, so uh, yeah. Just the hot take.

I think I have to pay my editor more if we go over, so yeah. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Oh, man, I think that the use of AI is overblown a bit, and it's a little too early for most platforms and services of how they pitch it. And that even relates into, you know, from marketing specifically, I think, you know, it's a big proposal point for a lot of vendors right now.

Um, that, you know, mainly on the software side, I'll say like marketing, not, not from an agency side, more from the software side that they're pitching AI capabilities, but I would say at least from my experience here that that's the least utilized component of any software we might be looking for that generally we're looking for something, not because of that.

It's like an add on. Oh, it also has this function, but a lot of times it's hard to realize that in the current business landscape. I think we're probably two to five years from, Oh, okay. It's actually like, this is what we're using this for. Uh, maybe that's specific to our business. I don't know. 

Daniel: No, I actually love to take, and I agree.

Uh, yeah, it's interesting to me. I see a lot of agencies talking about AI and I laugh cause I'm like, I can't, uh, I hear you, you're not replying to emails, uh, fast or like returning people's phone calls. Like you're trying to master AI, like maybe we do the basics first. So I like the take. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah. And I think, you know, um, one of the best use cases is the copy side for like emails, but honestly, even like Apple's most recent ad, I think I saw a great screenshot on, um, LinkedIn where someone had taken like the screenshot from the Apple ad about Apple intelligence, which honestly part of me is like, it's a little vacuous for Apple to call it Apple intelligence.

It's like, I don't know if Steve Sharp would have ever approved this. RIP Steve. Yeah. I was like, yeah, Apple, I get it. But, um, it made the copy worse in the email. Like it made it really, really generic. It was like a funny email. Someone had written back. And yeah, maybe it's like off brand or something.

Someone would say that, but I'm like, I don't know if I'm emailing and it's like, it looks like a more personal time toned email, even in the business setting, I probably know the person well. And like, it made it really generic, like a really generic take with, you know, best regards and all that. I'm just like, that's just not necessary.

Daniel: You know? I agree. Yeah. I think it's interesting too. This is not a groundbreaking take for me. Cause I've heard many people make it, but I do agree with it that yeah. In an increasingly, uh, AI driven world at scale. The people not using AI are the ones who then stand out. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it'll be interesting to see how it, uh, how it continues to grow.

Yeah. Uh, you've spent much of your career on the agency side. You're now leading Ecom on the brand side. Tell us a little bit about Casemate first. And then my biggest question I have for everybody is, What's the biggest difference you've seen? Agency to brand. How do you, to people considering potentially making the switch?

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah. Um, it is, it is a big switch. Um, so I'll come back to the agency versus brand difference, but yeah, casemate, um, has been around since 2005. Um, been in, in large retailers working with, you know, wireless carriers, selling phone cases, mobile accessories, the first, you know, 15 years of the company is mostly phone cases and some ancillary devices, iPads, things like that.

Some licensed brand partners and our house brands as well. Um, the last, you know, five years or so since COVID we switched into really maximizing and getting better at all the internal supply chain functions, like really honing in on what we're good at, um, which is, you know, delivering things really quickly to customers.

Um, and being able to launch products really quickly. So that's what we're really good at, I think, is, is having an idea, turning it into reality, um, faster than a lot of companies can do. Um, not having long lead times and working really closely with our customers. Um, from an online perspective, you know, we've definitely leaned more into the fashion space, um, in the last few years, launching different products that are, um, Less phone case as people don't change their phones that often, um, which, you know, the iPhone is too good.

So it, you know, who needs the newest one all the time. So knowing that business is not growing necessarily. Um, we've gotten into a lot of other areas, um, for more beach products, things like that, which is really exciting. So, um, always new things happening. So I think, you know, the biggest adjustment though, I'm thinking agency side versus brand side, I was on the agency side working with casemate as a client.

So I did the classic go from. Working on the client to now client in house, um, which happens every so often 

Daniel: a highly sought after free agent, you know, like a draft 

T.R. Wilhoit: prospect, 

Daniel: you know, you entered the transfer portal and got picked up. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah. Some people want that. Now I took it, there was a year in between that.

Um, so, you know, I started my career, um, at IQ. That's now called mighty roar. Um, still some really good people over there, so give them a shout out. Um, I think they heavily focus on financial services, but, um, some good people there transferred to, uh, 44, which is now Bounteous pretty large agency globally.

Um, now at this point, um, I was at publicist group at Performix for one year doing Toyota. So that was my big holding company experience. And I really liked the people there. Um, not sure the processes are my thing, but learned that along the way. Sure. Um, and then, you know, when it came to joining Casemate, um, I, I thought my entire time at the agency side, I was like, what, what are my clients doing?

Like, what, why are they not responding to my email, you know, five seconds after I sent it? You know, what, what is, what is this? Like, what, what, what is the, why is there so much process? Why, you know, why do I have to wait a week to show them these numbers? You know, whatever it is. Um, And I learned when I came in on the brand side that there's just so much more going on internally.

And there's so much more, um, dynamic types of work you're having to do and so much more communication that I think agencies, I think internally are actually as loose as they can be. And like, it's a fun environment that can be challenging for people. But you kind of get used to having to communicate quickly with people, right?

You're talking to your colleagues. If you're on a team and you're running media like I was, I'm talking to my team all the time. I might be in a platform, but I'm like sending chats, all these things. Sure. Well, being on the brand side, the same thing's happening, but you're dealing with different challenges.

I just think it doesn't, it doesn't match up one to one, but I learned really quickly that, okay, there's different needs and there's different stakeholders and there's even more stakeholders that you would have at an agency. An agency can be really simple. I have my client and I know who the main point of contact is and that's the decision maker.

Great. Done. On the brand side, There's a lot more decision makers. Um, it's way simpler. As hard as it can be to have nine or ten clients, if you were like me, at least I knew, okay, this one person's going to say yes or no to this. You know, coming on the brand side, I'm like, okay, I have finance needs this.

You know, the head of finance might ask this question. I have marketing that has different needs. I have, you know, my own needs for e commerce that I'm asking people for. So it's just a little more dynamic. I think that's been an interesting challenge. Just, you know, how do you Communicate effectively with people that are in different specific types of roles where they deal with different challenges.

They're not, you're not just talking about marketing or talking about your channel, you know? 

Daniel: Yeah, I think it's interesting too. I, uh, I won't even, uh, begin to hold you to answering which one is easier because I don't think there really is an answer, but I do think it's interesting. My general You know, feedback to folks.

I think working at an agency on numerous clients early in your career is, if I had to say better, uh, I think there's something to be said for switching back and forth between and like being able to pivot so quickly between different clients and different projects and different types of work with different goals and different stakeholders and stuff.

Not that that doesn't happen inside of a brand, but to your point, it's, it's different. They're all on your same team. So I think there's definitely merit. And I think working at both to your point in your career path is, uh. Yeah. See what you like better. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Well, I think too, you know, something I thought about looking back on being on the agency side and being at, you know, working with all different types of clients.

You're kind of like, you kind of feel like you're fast tracked. It's, you know, my boss here has used the term, it's like you're getting the real time MBA. You know, and I talked to him, I was like, should I get an MBA? And he's like, no, he has one. Like, where should I go? He's like, no, you're going to get one while you're here.

Hello. Okay. You know, and I understand that now more fast forward three, four years. Oh yeah, I get that. Like, I don't know how hard the test would be at this point. Um, dealing with real business issues, but you know, I look back at the advertising side. What I ran into is I, you know, sometimes I feel frustrated in my career growth because I'm, I feel like I'm so much further ahead than some people.

Like if I were to go straight into a brand, um, say it's a large brand, public, publicly traded company. Um, when I started my career, I feel like I would have been a little frustrated with the process and how fast or slow it might move. Right. Um, and I would say it's probably the slow side that there's hurdles, there's red tape.

Um, on the agency side, at least the agencies I was at, I felt like I had some, you know, I had to figure it out when I was at the public side at publicists, I had to figure out how to communicate a little bit more. with them because there was a language they spoke that was different than the independence and the independence to me, it was a little more like laissez faire.

Like I could just, you know, talk about an idea with someone that's two rungs above me and it worked a big deal. Um, you know, and then coming to the case, mainly I feel the same way. Like we don't have a lot of those restrictions, which is good. Some people have a hard time adjusting to that. They're not used to, you know, CEO asking them a question and they, yeah.

Um, my first boss was a CEO at an agency and I was editing blogs, um, for him and whatever else he needed, you know, this search issue. I'm like, okay, 

Daniel: I'll 

T.R. Wilhoit: do 

Daniel: it. Figure it out. Now I went publicly traded company to agency and now entrepreneurship. And I just remember like calling my dad at the age of, I don't know, 22 or 23, however old I was and saying like, I don't know how I can do this for the next like, 

T.R. Wilhoit: right.

Daniel: And he was like, what do you mean? That's just what you do. I was like, it's so slow. Like everything takes like forever to like do anything. We don't, we don't do anything all day, you know, and stuff like that. I did feel to your point at an agency yet, just even if things took a while, I just felt like I was constantly in motion, which is better for me.

So, uh, to switch to your current role, I'm curious, I think. Find with a lot of folks like, I don't know, the world still seems in a somewhat state of disarray, at least with people I chat with in terms of marketing and job market and stuff like that. What's your best piece of advice to marketing leaders out there in your seat about how to survive and thrive for the rest of this year and into 2025?

T.R. Wilhoit: Um, I think for me it's, you really have to be more dynamic and open, I think, than you had to be in the past. Um, I think spend less time in PowerPoint is a big thing. Like, spend more time with the people on your team talking through issues. Or talking to colleagues or people you've met. Like, you know, some of my most valuable conversations I've had for marketing the last year have been, You know, I met someone at a conference and I just, I reached out to them and said, Hey, can I just bounce some ideas off you just to have a chat?

You know, I'm curious, this vendor renewals coming up and I just want to know, like, what was your thoughts on them, you know, um, just to get some perspective. And I think it's really nice to have those conversations and like, to try to be involved, um, somewhat with, you know, people that are doing similar things to you.

Um, so I think. One, I think, try to make some connections with other people in similar roles. You know, I, I don't worry too much about the competitive side of that, or like, whether there's, you know, we make the same type of products or not, you know, I haven't run into that. But, um, you know, I try to stay connected to some people and just have fun.

Open conversations with people I've met it, you know, a vendor conference or like attended, you know, an Atlanta based digital conference and just like, you know, learn something about their business, but also bounce some ideas off of, because even businesses that don't match up, I was at an event, um, in Woodstock, Cherokee County recently, and just meeting people that work in a completely different category, but Hey, well you have the same tech stack and they, you know, What are you facing challenges on?

And, you know, it's, it's interesting to have those conversations. Um, but I think the biggest thing, you know, if you're working at a brand, um, and you're in marketing, especially is just to, you know, look at the new things. Don't get shiny object syndrome. You know, there's, there's a million new things a day, the AI thing, whatever it is, some of that matters, some of it doesn't.

Um, and I think if you focus on the basics and then the communication side and like the things you've learned or the things, you know, whatever the channels you're strongest on, it's like, try to play to your strengths. It's a certain areas. And then if you have weaknesses, I think, you know, one try to learn some things on your own, but try to be hands on, I think in learning with the team and not just, you know, I, I always look at it like I'm not just going to staff someone to do a capability that I have no understanding of.

Like I want to have some baseline understanding of something. You know, if I'm staffing someone on email marketing, like if I didn't know anything about email marketing, I would have a hard time. Judging that individual or judging a vendor, even if I hired an agency for that. Um, so I think for, you know, to kind of sum it up, I think being dynamic for me is just being open to new ideas, talking with the team, like making sure that you're plugged in and not focused too much on like reporting results.

I kind of get paralyzed by like, if I was doing PowerPoint reporting on the last promo period every week and having to deliver these things and not spending enough time having discussions, I'm an open thinker. When it comes to that, it frustrates people sometimes as I'm like, I'm going to ideate and some people don't want to hear ideas until their commands.

So, um, but I think for me, it's just about, you know, being open to those, those, those new opportunities and really like thinking about what are the basics and what can you, what ground can you cover? 

Daniel: I like it. Uh, you brought up the, the agency word. Uh, so I'll, I'll move into my favorite portion. Um, Most marketing leaders I speak to at your level, VP, CMO, are getting hit up a million times a day, everywhere.

Uh, email, different communities, LinkedIn, text, phone, all that sort of stuff. Are you getting, uh, bombarded with inbound from agencies across the board? 

T.R. Wilhoit: Oh yeah, I've got a long list of LinkedIn purgatory. 

Daniel: If you had to give a PSA of sorts, I'll start with mine that I give on every episode. To most agencies, it is just to chill out, uh, relax and take a deep breath.

Uh, do you have a message to agencies out there? You're an attractive brand, in my opinion. You know, e commerce, uh, consumer focused, probably some bandwidth to do cool work. I would argue, um, for agencies out there, which I would argue is a lot of them who want to work with you. What's your, your PSA or, you know, what's a way to break through?

I'll put that in the vein of, is there a way for anybody to break through if you're not in market for an agency? Are you open to taking calls outside of, uh, I need this at this moment? 

T.R. Wilhoit: I think it depends, you know, um, on the agency side, you know, a lot of times when I've had really good partners, it starts off with like one thing and then it turns into Multiple channels, right?

Like it's that one thing that they've hit on that I need, or it's a referral, right? I think the strongest thing is to like, for agencies is to, if I, if it's a referral from someone I know, I'm much more likely to be interested and be like, Oh, okay. You're like, if someone told me about their agency and it's like, we're using them.

Really like that. Just thought you might like them too. You know, it's still about to me about timing. Like it's not always going to be the right timing, but I'm much more open to that than more of the direct side. I think, um, I have a funny example for me of what not to do, which is the automated LinkedIn messaging.

When I get an automated LinkedIn message, as funny as was, you know, TRT dot R dot all those AI tools have no idea how to put my whole name in there. So if I get a message, And comma, I know someone's done something wrong. 

Daniel: They think your last name is R and your first name is T. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, it just takes the T only as my name.

It just leaves off after the punctuation thinking that's not a part of the name. So I always know it's automated. Um, 

Daniel: when I think of. Hasn't figured out that yet. In many cases, I'm like, Oh boy, like we're still a ways away. I think, 

T.R. Wilhoit: I think, you know, I think the software providers are probably the worst at that.

I don't think agencies are too at fault on that. Um, a lot of times agencies will just hammer me with emails if I'm on a list or something, those generally never break through. I think the referrals, if I got a personal LinkedIn message, like someone sent me an email or something, I'm going to read it. Um, you know, if it's, if it's like, I can tell it's not written it properly or they have a connection to me.

That's not. Um, or I guess, you know, you don't have to be like quirky and, um, off color or something like that to like get my attention. Cause I know that's a big thing in the sales side, you know? Um, I think it's just being honest, you know, Hey, I understand. I worked at agencies like, you don't have to tell me that you're, you don't have to pretend like you're not trying to sell me your services.

You know what I mean? 

Daniel: Yeah, no, I agree. Um, I'm curious. I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID. Um, but a little bit before then, cause I came from a small independent agency. I've seen brands, especially big brands moving away from big holding company agencies, moving towards smaller specialized agencies, um, who are specialized in say one to two things, which is, you know, in line with what you said of starting with one thing.

What do you think of that trend in general? Is that how you think of agencies? Uh, you know, when you're on the hunt or in market for an agency, 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah, I mean, I think, um, the, what's happening now is probably, it's not that different than what happened a few years ago. I think that the big agencies have been experiencing this for a while now, which is some attrition based on specialty.

I do think that most agencies, even if they pitch that they're full service, are really good at a few things. And I think the best clients I can think about, like when, at some agencies I was at, When, when clients seem to understand what we were really good at and you kind of understood what you could really do for them, those were the best relationships where you had that back and forth.

Like, okay, we actually, we actually understand this business. Um, I think that's hard to do with the large agencies. Um, especially when you have the big evil strategy type of thing, which I came from strategy. I get that. Um, it's a dirty word in my world. Yeah. They're scared of it. Um, You know, I, I do think there's still, there's still plenty out there for large agencies to, to take on like, you know, full accounts with everything, um, taken by one partner.

But I do think there is an emerging, um, scale of, of these small independent agencies that are really good at one thing or really specific at something. Um, And it's not about what I've noticed, at least from, I've worked with some smaller agencies, um, now working with one agency on all of our, our things at the moment that's independent as well.

Um, I came to them through the affiliate channel and they're really good at affiliate. I just, I talked to another brand that I'm friends with that just signed out with them for affiliate too. Same thing happened to me and then the referral, I was like, Oh, they're great. Um, and that's kind of what they've kind of built their business on.

I think that's really smart, um, because it's a people based business, um, for, for that, right. It's not about the software they have, or like we've built our own proprietary. Yeah. Cool. Like that, that doesn't seem to be coming up as much. Like the small guys are coming in and saying, Hey, you know, I'm running my own ads on meta and this is like my results.

You want me to run your ads too? And that's attractive. I think to marketers, um, these days where there's, It's like, okay, maybe I try these guys for one thing. And if they're really good at it, they get more. 

Daniel: Yeah. I think that's the struggle for agencies. Like you mentioned, uh, again, it's truthfully just the temptation.

If you have a good experience with them for that one thing that they're really great at to go, Hey, could you do this? And they go, ah, I don't know. We don't really do that. And you go, Well, come on, like, and, you know, you're dangling some budget potentially. I think the struggle for agencies is to say now, like we're not, and we're willing to forego trying to do this and tarnish the original stuff to do well.

Um, you know, on this new thing, but I think truthfully, I think COVID was kind of the, the Equalizer in agency land because it pulled the curtain back a little. I think people realized, Oh shit, like there's talented people everywhere. Like, you know, and like, maybe we don't need a big shiny office in New York.

Although I am a big proponent of agencies having, um, office space. And I think it does. There is something about in person that could be a whole other episode. I'm sure somebody will comment on this and tell me I'm wrong, but, um, you know, it's hard to get. the same energy and again, just bouncing ideas off of people in person.

But yeah, I think COVID just let people know, yeah, like even at a massive agency, there's still probably five or 10 people working on your account. You know, there's not a thousand people working on that every day. So yeah, I think COVID kind of, uh, leveled the, uh, the playing field a little bit for folks.

So, um, without naming names here, Can you think of a negative agency experience you've had in the past and what made it so negative? Um, 

T.R. Wilhoit: yeah, I mean, I've had my share of agencies, um, since I've been here too. And I inherited some when I first got here. Um, you know, I think there's a couple, a couple of things I can probably point to.

Um, one is I think, you know, when we have some specialty agency doing search marketing, Um, they had SEO as part of that. Some, you know, we used to call it SEM. I don't know if anyone says that anymore. Um, which is, you know, basically Google Ads, right? 

Daniel: They do, they do in my world. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Okay. SEO and SEM. I haven't put that in a PowerPoint in a long time.

Um, What do you call it? Just performance in general? I would just do Google Ads or paid search. That's probably what I'd call it. Um, They were doing both. And you know, I, I got here and I looked at the campaigns. I'm like, okay, 99 percent of the spend and revenues from one automated campaign. And then the SEO report I was getting was, you know, 50 pages of every keyword we ranked for.

And I was just like, okay, this is doing nothing. And like, Clearly they went on autopilot at some point and just where there was a staffing issue or something and I was like, this is crazy so that, you know, that's bad from one perspective of like, okay, the reporting is useless to they're not showing their value in any way, which which was, you know, a challenge.

And that was an easier fix. I think, um, did they own it when you brought it up? Uh, partially, but not really. I think that there was just some confusion. It was, you know, it was one of those things where I inherited the agency brought on by someone else. Um, and so they may have had different goals at the time.

So I kind of took that as try and they didn't end up taking it in stride. It's everything's good. I'm sure they're still doing fine. Um, I had another experience where, you know, we've signed on for some work on a certain channel and, um, You know, the team you think you're getting is that a different team.

Um, and you may have different faces on there, but they never seemed to really grasp the business. Um, and what your goals were and they never really hit the goals. So that's one of those, you know, six months later I'm like, okay, I think we're just done here. And they didn't fight it at all. So I'm like, I just don't think they wanted to work on the business.

So yeah, I'm sure there's other things I could point to, but, uh, you know, for a part on too much negative stuff. 

Daniel: No, we'll, we'll switch to, uh, I, I joke, uh, we don't name names on the positivity as well because, you know, no free publicity in 2024. But, uh, yeah. Can you think of a, a positive agency experience you've had as well?

And what, what actually made it positive? 

T.R. Wilhoit: I think the most positive agency experiences I've had are, um, based on the people that really seem to get, understand what your needs are. Are proactive, like communicate well, um, and at no point seem to, you know, be little business or like the performance of something or like explain it away.

Daniel: Yeah. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Um, and just come back with solutions for how they want to fix it or what they want to try differently. Um, I think that's been, you know, a refreshing thing is having. The right people that seem like they're in the right seats that are passionate about it. Um, you can tell, I don't think even with zoom and stuff and like doing video calls, like you can tell when someone really seems to grasp what they're proposing you.

Um, and that they're not just selling you on something that this is the person that can run the channel or whatever you're doing the way you want them to, um, and the way you expect them to. Um, and they even, you know, I would say. Some of my experience with this partner, um, you know, they brought new ideas to the table that we didn't even think of.

And I think that's huge too, is like, you know, actually leveraging the one benefit I think of having an agency, you know, you, you would expect is, Hey, you know, are there other client learnings that you can apply to my business? Cause there has to be, right. Um, I think that partner has done that really well is taking things that, Hey, we have a similar business.

I think we could take you down this path and, um, it's really great. I think it's just, it's all about the. Is how well they can communicate. 

Daniel: I agree. I think, uh, my, I post about it frequently on LinkedIn and on this podcast that, yeah, there was two things I wrote down here that based on what you just said that, yeah, whenever agencies tell me they have a proprietary process or something, I kind of blackout and all I think is, yeah, people are the only differentiator.

I'm not saying your process isn't good or streamlined or any of that, but like, you know, within however many percentage points for the most part, like. The process is the general process and stuff like that. And then, yeah, to your point, uh, enthusiasm in every single interaction goes such a long way. There are agencies that retain business for years based on enthusiasm, you know, like again, eventually you'll get fired if you suck at what you do or like the results don't show up, but enthusiasm for the business.

And again, I don't mean trying and like. You deserve a, you know, a medal or an award for trying, but like, not everything works in marketing, you know, and agencies who tell you they have the secret to, you know, your success as a brand, I say, or telling a white lie, but yeah, enthusiasm for the business and to arrive at what works and figuring out what works and all of that sort of stuff goes such a long way.

T.R. Wilhoit: Totally. And I'll say to you, I'll add, you know, since I did come from the agency world, like I've had, You know, clients I would consider bad clients. Um, and that, you know, if any of my former colleagues hear this, I've had abusive clients that were abusive in their language and how they talked to the agency and they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

Um, I 

Daniel: was broken, uh, my last uh, client I worked with at my old agency. I was, uh, very much a broken man after that, uh, after that, uh, scenario play out, and if any of them are listening to it, they probably know who I'm talking about, so. If you've been in this agency land for, uh, enough time, everybody, I think, has their, uh, you know, that type of situation, so.

T.R. Wilhoit: Which I hope it's improved some, and I try to think about that when I'm communicating to you now, is like, you know, I've been on the other side of it. On the, on the flip side, you know, what can be frustrating on the brand side is like, I feel like I have a good enough understanding of how they should be engaging me that I can end up kind of more frustrated sometimes being like, yeah, I don't think you're spending enough time in my account.

Um, and you know, on the flip side, I think I can be more open with some of the senior leadership at the agencies too about that and say like, you know, you don't have to sugar coat this stuff to me. Like I understand they're not spending eight hours a day on me. Like I can. Uh, like I've been there, um, but I, you know, if you're going to ask me for more fees, I want to make sure that we have some dedicated people and we're not rotating things around.

I'm not getting like a mixture of, of who's doing what, or, you know, some random person is updating my beds or something like that. Right. Yeah. And so, 

Daniel: yeah, whenever an agency tells me there's any sort that I work with. that tells me there's any sort of conflict with a brand or anything like that. My general opinion of the best clients or I'll ask the agency if they fall into this is I think the best clients are tough, but fair.

So I don't expect, you know, everything to be roses. But my question generally back to agencies is like, is what they're, again, there's no place to be abusive, yell at people and stuff like that. Uh, but yeah, my question sometimes is like, yeah, that sounds like tough feedback, but like, is it fair? And most of the time it's, Yeah, it's, there's, there's some fairness to that and stuff like that.

But yeah, I mean, I've been doing this in this capacity for a little over four years now, like virtually, I've been very fortunate that very few, uh, successful matches have had any sort of like major turmoil. Every agency and brand to start working together eventually have some sort of situation, right?

It's how you get past that. But the biggest thing I find is just a, a lack of communication. Uh, making too many assumptions. Like, yeah, they probably know that that's what we're thinking or what we're working on and stuff like that. And then shying away from phone calls. Like virtually every conflict I've ever had in my life on the agency side is cured.

A 20 email thread is cured with a 30 second phone call. Right. Yeah. So many people are afraid to pick up the phone. Like it's, it's wild to me. And some people think it's groundbreaking when I recommend I'm like, Hey, have you picked up the phone yet? They're like, no, you think we should do that? I'm like, you should have done that 15 emails ago.

T.R. Wilhoit: So, yeah, that, I mean, that's still, you know, there's still a lot of email communication that happens too. And I'm like ready to, you know, I'm in a lot of slacks now, which is different. I've actually recently were on boarded a new tech partner that we really like. But I just said, I'm not joining the slack team.

I'm like, you guys, I think you guys can nail it. Like you talk to them as much as you want about getting this stuff done. But like, I can't possibly be in another slack right now. Um, which I didn't think I would run into that. That I ran into having too many chats with vendors. Um, Because it seems like it's such a good thing for certain applications for certain needs.

Like I like having an agency slack or something that I can just like ask a question in. Um, because I think it's more immediate than a email. I also understand why an agency wouldn't want to do that. Um, So I can see both sides of it. But to your point on the phone call thing, I'm like, I'd rather, yeah, just talk about it for a few minutes and not have to like plan out a call and like, wait, there's an issue.

Daniel: Yeah. You just get more human stuff. The impromptu phone call, it's just more normal. Hey, you got two minutes to chat and then usually they do. So, um, we'll finish with a couple, uh, what are you most bullish about or excited about in the marketing space? And normally I say not AI, but, uh, you've already said it's not AI.

I'm curious. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Well, here's the thing, I use AI a lot. Like, I do, ChatGPT is like, my go to for helping with, you know, understanding certain contract language, um, understanding, you know, analyzing some data sets if I need it, like, re formatting stuff. I love it, for myself. I just didn't think that it applied to business as much, um, or like full business units and business cases.

Um, I think I'm really bullish about, um, honestly I think mobile apps, uh, we launched a mobile app last year and I'm really bullish about how that's going, um, for us. And I think the, the continued push on mobile and like, I actually think TikTok, um, you know, they've had some challenges with shop this year.

We launched TikTok shop and it's been, um, pretty big for us and I'm obsessed 

Daniel: with TikTok shop. 

T.R. Wilhoit: And I think, I think it's going to take a little bit more time, but I think I'm pretty bullish on TikTok, figuring that out and figuring out more of the, uh, landscape for how they end up driving Amazon sales and other channel sales too.

Um, I just think TikTok is such a valuable platform that is, I still think it's underutilized by most brands for how it can really influence sales. I mean, I think about like my wife, she uses TikTok exclusively to research things that she may want to buy. So she's looking for a new vacuum cleaner.

Guaranteed, been through TikTok. TikTok's a search engine for her. Tell 

Daniel: your wife I just bought a Dyson dupe. And it's wonderful. So you know, she, uh, she needs a reco. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Nice. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really useful as a search tool to see opinions and perspective. And it's such a, you know, you have the shop portion, you have the content portion of the review portion, you get the means and all the goofy videos, but it's like, it can really make a difference for how something sells.

Uh, for you as a brand on Amazon or everywhere else, if you can figure out how to utilize it. And even if you're like, uh, if you're, if you're not a brand that feels like I just can't do shop, like I can't connect to the way I think the affiliate tech talk affiliate space is so big and such a big opportunity.

Um, and I'm really bullish on the, the affiliate space picking up even more like affiliate marketing is such an old school thing. And it's funny to think that it's now, you know, in 1995 you could do affiliate marketing on the share sale. Well, fast forward. TikTok has their affiliate platform and most brands are probably under utilizing it for what it could truly do for them.

Um, and the brands that are utilizing it, well, there's a lot you'd never heard of, but they might be doing a million dollars a week on somebody with some of these 

Daniel: affiliates. It's so easy. My, I had mentioned to my brother, like. Oh, you should check it out. He was like, what's the difference between shopping on Instagram?

And I was like, I don't know, but it's so much more easy. Yes. Just more seamlessly integrated. It's wild. Totally. What keeps you up from a business standpoint or stresses you out the most? Oh, that was a heavy sigh. Let it, let it out. 

T.R. Wilhoit: No, I think, you know, um, the pace of technology can be tough, but I think, you know, it feels like you're making, you know, I'm making updates to my Shopify site or whatever, and then, Oh, now there's a new version of it, or there's a new thing and you got to update that.

Um, I think that that's can be a challenge of keeping everything updated to the most current. Um, I think media performance, you know, is such an up and down thing. This being an election year made it tougher to where, um, Hey, do we blame CPMs on election or do we not? You know, and it's like, okay, you look how much money that was spent.

You have to blame some of it. But now coming out of the election, things haven't changed a lot. So it's just a change in behavior. Um, and are people responding differently to ads? Um, so I think, you know, the KPIs are tough. It's like, you know, what is my, if I, you know, keep doing seven day lookbacks, what's my CPA today?

Um, am I hitting my targets? Um, I think that's the biggest thing is like making sure it's, it seems like it's harder now to maintain consistency in some of the channels when it comes to media spend and that the 

Daniel: internet ruined everything, 

T.R. Wilhoit: right? It's not such an easy journey map that we made 15 years ago.

Daniel: It's also, I find just more like unpredictable to your point, which I think is also exciting. Like when you talked about Tik TOK, I still, I don't know if it's debatable even, but Tik TOK is in my opinion, the only platform that affords you the opportunity for one piece of content from a random ass brand to go viral or an individual to, you know, Uh, go crazy and stuff like that and legitimately change your life.

It could happen on Instagram. Something could happen with YouTube if the right people share and stuff like that. But with TikTok and however their algorithm is set up, it is wild from an organic perspective. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah. And I think for us, it's, we've learned to like with the affiliate marketing with that too, is it's about having other people talk about your things too.

I think, you know, We're trying to invest less in us screaming about our own products and trying to get other people to be as excited as we are that actually like the products, right? Um, when you find what the tick tock sign, it's like, all it takes is one affiliate, one video that'll drive all your sales.

You may have to send out 500 products, but Um, it's worth it, um, to see what it can do for the rest of your business. 

Daniel: No, I love it. Uh, we'll finish with a couple of fun ones here. What was your very first job? 

T.R. Wilhoit: Very first job. I taught guitar lessons when I was 15. 

Daniel: Some illegal, uh, employment. I love it.

T.R. Wilhoit: Technically. Yeah. So, Um, yeah, my dad would come by after he got off work and pick me up at the music store. 

Daniel: That's awesome. You still play guitar? 

T.R. Wilhoit: I do, yeah, so I've played guitar for a long time. Um, but, yeah, I was teaching in 9th grade, it was essentially 9th or 10th grade. Um, and still play a lot today, but taught all through high school.

Most of it, um, I had a lot of students. That now, it's like weird, because that, you know, that's a long time ago, and I have, I see the students now, it's like they're married and stuff. It's strange. What would 

Daniel: your, uh, what would your final meal be? 

T.R. Wilhoit: Um, I have to say Hot Wings. That's for sure. From 

Daniel: where and what style?

T.R. Wilhoit: Oh my gosh, from where? I don't know if I can pick from where. Well, I'd pick the local or I'd pick Ratchett's Rim in Atlanta. Those are my favorites. 

Daniel: I've never had the Righteous Room wings. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Oh, Righteous Room's amazing. The mixed, the mixed sauce, incredible. Buffalo Korean, I think, is the one at, uh, the local that I would get.

But, I would also do, like, uh, fajita nachos. I'd 

Daniel: love it, I'm sure it was bored. 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yep. 

Daniel: And then my final question, who's somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? 

T.R. Wilhoit: Oh, uh, um

Um, I definitely looked up to some of the people I worked for in the past that I really liked. Like my first boss I really looked up to, he was a CEO at IQ, Tony Quinn. Um, and he taught me a lot about the ad business. He came from like, working for Dick Clark. As a producer and like a lot of big agencies that, you know, being a copywriter at Leo Burnett, he had this background, um, and taught me a lot about how to deal with clients, I think, and like how to present yourself and present in general was good at the pitching side of things.

Um, and then I had another boss at 44 Adam row used to be a casemate as well. And, um, he taught me a lot about just day to day process and how to keep working on things. And he was really iterative. Um, and I think I got a lot of like how I communicate internally with my team from him, like, Hey, you know, coming in on a Monday and looking back at what happened last week and trying to make changes, um, or, or make adjustments or, you know, learn from something.

I think he was really good at that part. 

Daniel: Awesome. No, I love it. I appreciate you joining. Uh, before we go, any, any plugs for, uh, for casemate, anything new coming out, coming into holiday? You mentioned the app. What should, uh, what should folks take away from this around, uh, around your world? 

T.R. Wilhoit: Yeah, I mean, get the app.

Casemate is great. Um, you know, Black Friday coming up, we'll have some great deals, so that's always good. But I think, you know, in general, you know, if you subscribe to our emails and stuff, we're always have something new coming out, um, new and exciting things. So Um, yeah, just follow along, follow the journey.

Awesome. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. Thank you.