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Daniel: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to Podcast. I am your host as well as [00:01:00] your sponsor, Daniel Wiener. You should talk to pairs, brands, and marketers for free with vetted agencies because finding great agencies is a pain in the ass. Finding an agency is easy. Finding the right agency is hard today.

Super excited to be joined by Justine Fisher, who is the Vice President of Marketing at bartaco, one of my, uh, longstanding favorite restaurants. How are we today, Justine? 

Justine: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. 

Daniel: Thank you so much for joining. Uh, we'll dive right into, uh, maybe some controversy. What is an unpopular marketing opinion you have or a, a hot take of sorts in the world of marketing?

Justine: Interesting. I think my hottest take so far is, you know. In a world where UGC and Agile low budget content is really becoming the norm for digital advertising, I still have a super soft spot for good design, um, and meticulous design. 

Daniel: Any, uh, any brands you admire at the moment who are doing it well in your opinion?

Justine: You know, I [00:02:00] really have loved some of the design that's come out of more classic big brands like Burger King Duncan. Um, I was lucky enough to work alongside a great creative in-house team at Chobani who had, um, some people who had done some really cool and prolific design work. And so that has really been something that stuck with me throughout my journey.

Daniel: I had a Blueberry Chobani about, uh, 15 minutes ago, so shout out Chobani awesome. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about your past a little bit. We've got Chobani, we've got Perino card. Now you teach, uh, marketing at NYU, um, and now at bartaco for your full-time gig. Tell us a little bit about that journey. Um, in particular, I'm always curious like, what have you seen with consumer behavior, uh, as you've progressed in your career?

Maybe nothing has changed or maybe everything has changed. 

Justine: Yeah, I think for me, I kind of fell into food. Um, I actually started my career at Nestle and. It was a big job right out of college, out of undergrad, and it just was [00:03:00] an incredible learning experience. But I knew that I had a hunger to be at a more agile, um, place, and Chobani was really on the rise.

It had only been around for about four years and had just exploded in the marketplace. Um, and what really made it special that has stuck with me is it had an orientation towards creativity and brand. In a way that I saw other similarly situated big food companies did not. Um, it was also founder led and owned and one of the very rare, privately owned billion dollar brands.

So it was a, a huge learning experience. I got to do a few different things there at Chobani. Um, and then ultimately had been there almost 10 years and decided it was time to. Take a new leap and I jumped into the world of spirits and alcohol, um, at Pau Ricard running their tequila and mezcal portfolio.

So four different brands there all still either partially [00:04:00] founder owned or small enough that they felt a little bit more nimble than some of the other brands in the portfolio, like Absolute or Jameson. Um, and that was an incredible experience because it was really. Oriented all around the consumer. And so I think I learned a lot about consumer behavior at both Chobani, Nestle and then at Bruno.

That has really stuck with me today and I think that is that consumers are really ever changing and not nearly as linear as marketers like to think. Sure. Um, and I think that you have to really be agile in the way that you speak to them and authentic. But also still maintain your brand identity or what makes your brand special.

Um, so the first question that you asked me, I think today you're seeing a lot of brands really lean into this more agile content or creator led content, which is a fantastic away to raise awareness. But I think what we're [00:05:00] losing is a little bit of the brand distinction and I think consumers can tell.

Um, and so to me, I think. You know, one of the biggest challenges in marketing is really figuring out how do you stand out amongst the sea of sameness in today's market when people are just consuming content at a incredible rate. 

Daniel: Yeah. Um, I have a question on that, but before we get to it, I'm curious, what are you teaching these days at NYU?

Justine: So, um, I traditionally teach a marketing finance class. Um, and this may 

Daniel: be a dumb question, what does, what does that mean largely around like budget and you know, how to think through, uh, you know, marketing expenditures and stuff as a marketing leader. 

Justine: Yeah. So really the classes oriented around how do you teach, uh, marketing professionals to be partners to the finance team?

A huge part of budget. In a any company is marketing. It's a big expense and then traditionally not seen, [00:06:00] um, as a revenue driver, it's a cost center. And so you really have to be well equipped to have the dialogue around how do you articulate value of marketing investment? How do you measure it, and how do you think about short and long term return on that investment?

What are the metrics? I like to think of signals and then KPIs. So how do you. Understand a signal that might indicate your investment is making an impact. And then how do you measure the top line or bottom line impact for a business? 

Daniel: I love it. I wanted to jump back into what you said prior about the sea of sameness.

Um, I work with a ton of different brands across B2C, B2B, but a lot of, uh, food brands in general, a lot of franchise, a lot of multi-unit. Uh, it's hard. There is so much competition for, uh, attention, in my opinion. It's not just who your, you know, your main competitors are in your, you know, industry. It's, you're competing with attention on TikTok.

You're competing with people's hungers. You know, if you told me [00:07:00] anything right now it sounds, uh, delicious. 'cause I'm still hungry from my Chobani. How do you think about that in your current role at bartaco and how do you even attempt to to stand out? 

Justine: Yeah. I think in the, this industry, in the restaurant industry, it's really interesting because there are a few ways to stand out.

One, I think you have to be willing to take some risks in your strategy. and you gotta have a little bit of a hunger and desire to jump off the ledge sometimes. 

Daniel: Sure. 

Justine: And then I think you have to really be clear in who you are as a brand, what you stand for, and how that translates not only in the four walls of your restaurant, but then how do you bring that into the outside world.

I think that's the hardest thing for a restaurant is you can really curate and cultivate a really incredible customer experience inside of the four walls that you own. The people that you employ to deliver incredible hospitality, play a big role in that. Um, but when your guest stepped [00:08:00] outside of the restaurant or hasn't stepped inside of the restaurant yet, it's hard to create the exact same experience or that same feeling of being taken care of with great hospitality.

Um, and I think that's where kind of my principles around. Really strong brand design come into play. Like how do you take the core tenets of your brand and build a world that mimics your restaurant outside in the real world, whether it's digital or physical. Um, and so I think that's like one challenge that you face in this industry.

The second one that I'm really excited about and. You know, has really kind of fueled my interest in the restaurant space, is the data and technology that's becoming available for restaurateurs and restaurant groups is really incredible. CPG for example, was, you know, much further along in their marketing maturity curve because they're able to leverage some core [00:09:00] foundations of technology that were in place from, you know, decades ago.

Daniel: Sure. 

Justine: Um, and so what I see here in this industry is a lot of where CPG was maybe 10 or 15 years ago, and being able to understand guest behaviors with more nuance will allow. Restaurants like bartaco to deliver much stronger in-store and out of store guest experiences. The marketing technology is just exciting.

It's innovative. It's incredible. And I think there's a lot you can do with it. Um, but you have to be particular because so much of restaurants is that personal one-to-one interaction. Um, and so you don't want technology to be degrading that experience, so it's really a, a, a dance. 

Daniel: Is there any particular piece of technology you're, uh, super interested in these days or something you're using that you're comfortable sharing?

Justine: We have a really robust marketing tech stack. Um, I don't [00:10:00] wanna speak to a specific partner, but. We definitely have a few key players in our stack that we rely on day in and day out to help us formulate guest insights, to connect them to our business performance, and then to deliver communications. And then there are a handful of partners that I am just now kind of tipping or stepping into partnering with to test the waters and see can they deliver messaging and communication in ways that we're not doing today.

Um, and how does that look? It's tricky because this industry has much thinner margins than other industries, and so the amount that we can invest in technology is, you know, a much lower rate than what we can invest in other industries like CPG or alk Bev. 

Daniel: Sure. Um, from what I hear from, uh, industry reports and trends, uh, inside restaurant, but also other, you know, verticals that 2025 is off to a, a weird start for many, um, and not as, as rosy [00:11:00] as folks.

I think we're hoping, um, to start the year off with what's your best piece of advice for other marketing leaders on how to, you know, thrive in 2025 and beyond and keep their teams excited and all that sort of stuff. 

Justine: Yeah. I think in 2025, you're right. It's definitely an interesting start. It's a challenging macro macroeconomic environment across the board.

But one of the things that I am trying to take to heart is, you know, fail fast, fail often, take a risk, and be willing to change direction. 

Daniel: I love it. That's usually I find a testament to good leadership at the C-suite level. If, uh, you're, if you feel comfortable enough to take, uh. Take those risks. So that's good to hear.

Uh, most folks with your title that I speak to, VPs and above, I would say, are getting hit up, uh, 27 million times per week by agencies, vendors, tech partners, all that sort of stuff. Uh, the first question is, is that the case for you as well? 

Justine: Yes. 

Daniel: I, I, from what [00:12:00] I understand, everybody thinks you're just sitting at your desk with a pile of money just waiting to, to shell out stuff.

Uh, my question to you is. I am always curious, is there any way, if you are not in market for something that an agency or a vendor, anybody can break through the clutter and the noise of the inbox or the LinkedIn, um, inbox in general to, to get your attention and, you know, plenty of people tell me no if I'm not in market, like I'm just not able to do it.

I'm curious your take on that and if you have a, uh, a PSA to, uh, to agencies and vendors out there who hypothetically want your business. 

Justine: Yeah, so we definitely aren't. Positions like the monopoly man. So you're right, we don't have an endless amount of cash to just 

Daniel: be sweet. If you did throw around 

Justine: it, yeah, it would be great.

But, um, I think for me historically, the best way I've found to for agency partners to get their name in the door, foot in the door is really just cultivating a relationship. Um, you know, for partners that I got in contact with at Chobani, some of them, I actually now am coming back into contact [00:13:00] here.

Daniel: That's awesome. At Bar 

Justine: Taco. And same thing with Pur and Nestle. So. You know, building the relationship and just introducing yourself as a person, as a marketer, or as a business person, and helping me understand what you're an expert in is a great way to really get business. Maybe it's not today, but perhaps again in the future.

Um, I think that giving me the routine pitch is, is difficult because, you know. Our business has a lot of different nuances. We're investing in a few key areas and it might not align with what you're pitching right now, but it could in the future. Um, so definitely build a relationship is my number one piece of advice.

Daniel: I agree. Um, that's why when most agencies, I think try to reinvent the wheel in terms of sales and business strategy to get in front of more brands and it's. I'm by no means saying it is easy, but, uh, I think the general principles are pretty simple. Uh, and to overcomplicate them, uh, [00:14:00] diminishes what you're doing as an agency.

Justine: Definitely. 

Daniel: Uh, I'm curious, at some point in your career we won't, we won't name where or who, but can you think of a bad or negative agency experience that you've had and what made it, uh, negative or bad? 

Justine: Yeah, I think that the. Experiences that stand out to me are where an agency partner felt like they had to fit within a specific template or a specific mold.

And so the creativity was really constrained or restrained, um, and it didn't feel exciting or boundary breaking or, um, out of the box enough to where it added value. So for me, I think when I look for an agency partner, um. The ones that really kind of like fall to the ground are the ones who aren't willing to think outside of the box, whether it's because the company put constraints on them or.

We didn't provide a good enough brief for [00:15:00] them to respond to. 

Daniel: I was gonna say, I'm curious. I, uh, interviewed yesterday Robert Gibson, who's a VP at, uh, Cox Automotive, and a lot of our conversation was around like attribution and performance, stifling creativity. To your point, sometimes, you know, induced by a brand, putting, you know, constraints on their partners or, you know, uh.

Tying the only KPIs and success metrics to clearly performance based stuff. I'm curious, do you have, I know we talked about creativity and, and brand at the beginning. Do you have an opinion of, uh, or I'll, I'll, I'll lob it up for you. I guess my, one of my unpopular opinions is, uh, so many folks I chat with are, I think, to a.

Sometimes unhealthy degree, obsessed with marketing attribution, um, and where every single penny, um, is being spent and tracking that back, which I think is virtually impossible. I'm curious your take of kind of balancing performance and creativity. 

Justine: Yeah, so it's interesting because I really am half and half part, [00:16:00] part marketing science, part art.

Um, you know, I'm a huge marketing tech nerd and so. We were really early at Chobani to bring on multi-touch attribution, and it was a huge unlock in the first time that the company had visibility into attribution across their digital channels. Um, and so I understand the need to really drive attribution, but what happens is, in my opinion, all of a sudden you see the creative get really weird and performy or.

Not really standing out amongst the sea of sameness out there. Um, especially in digital advertising. Programmatic is like the worst offender in my opinion, where you see that, um, attribution drive the creativity mostly into the ground, I think. Sure. Um, but on the other hand, you know, when you see channels that are unmeasurable or much harder to measure, like experiential or out [00:17:00] of home.

Um, I think that you see a little bit more creativity come into play there. And so to me it's really all about having a good balance across your funnel and making sure that you're not skewing too far into performance world or digital world where you have that tendency and kind of that drug of measurement driving your decision making.

Um. So to me, I think that's kind of how I approach it or how I think about the two playing together. 

Daniel: Yeah, I think presumably, uh, most of the best marketers are probably half and half, which probably changes and leans one way or the other depending on, on the day or, uh, what's going on in the economy and stuff.

But, uh, no, I think you have to be kind of both to succeed in, uh, 2025. I'm sure your leadership loves that. You're teaching finance at NYU as well, so you're always eyes on, eyes on the budget as well. I would imagine at least. Yes. Um, yes. Can you think of conversely a really positive agency experience you've had in the past and what made it, uh, positive?

One of my other hot [00:18:00] takes is, uh, that I say the work doesn't matter, which of course the work matters, but I find agencies forget, like all of this stuff prior to doing the actual work of, to your point, building a relationship to start anything and, uh, you know, the process during a pitch and all of that.

So I'm curious about a really positive experience you've had in the past. 

Justine: Yeah, I think there's one that stands out in my mind from this year. It was a smaller team, but for some reason they spent a lot of time just really getting to know us. They spent a lot of time visiting our brand, getting to know the brand, and the pitch process was really interactive, which I don't see a lot often.

I see a lot of more formal presentation, and this pitch was really a lot of asking questions and then kind of giving a little bit of a point of view. Um. Based on what we thought or what we responded with. And so that was something that really stood out in my mind because it felt like the agency had spent some time with the brand, a reasonable amount of time with the [00:19:00] brand, but then recognized, hey, like you guys are the experts and you know, I'm curious.

They demonstrated an intense degree of curiosity, um, a willingness to understand and then, you know, shared a fresh perspective, which was exactly what we were looking for. And it was just a really collaborative and fun and engaging experience. Um, so to me, I, I really enjoyed that and it stands out in my mind.

Daniel: That's how it should be. Uh, I work on a lot of, uh, I work in varying, um, levels of pitches with brands when agencies are involved and stuff. And to me, yeah, it's a miss when it's very rigid and you're just responding to an RFP. Um, I think the best, uh. Agency brand experiences I see is when they are, um, you know, there's three agencies in the finals and they give them all a ton of their time to really get to know the brand.

The pitches shine through as well. It's just incredibly different. I see when you can tell an agency hasn't had a [00:20:00] ton of time with the brand team to, to get to know what's going on. And I think brands often when they don't do that, they feel. Uh, like the agencies are being presumptuous and acting like they know their brand better than them, to your point.

'cause they kind of have to, 'cause they didn't spend a ton of time to get all that question and answer stuff, um, you know, with the brand. 

Justine: Totally. 

Daniel: Uh, what are you most excited about in 2025? I know you talked a little bit about marketing technologies and stuff like that, but what's, uh, what are you most bullish on?

Justine: I think I'm, yeah, most bullish on marketing technology in the restaurant industry. Um. I think that it's really fascinating to see a few things. One, I think guest insights and getting more robust around how do you understand your guest behavior and deliver faster insights so that you can ramp up your marketing strategy.

Um. In a lot more of an agile way. I think today it's, it's a slower [00:21:00] process than what you would imagine across like a D two C brand, um, or a more performance or growth oriented marketing team. So that's one that I'm really excited about. Um, I think the tech stack across marketing is starting to consolidate across partners in the industry.

It's really fragmented right now. Um, and so I am excited to see kind of what 2025 brings in terms of consolidation. Or, um, enhancing, um, different capabilities across the providers to make it easier for marketers like me, um, to get in touch with different teams, whether it's, you know, five instead of 10 or 10 instead of 15.

That would be wonderful. Um, and then I think on the other hand, I'm really excited about thinking about how local marketing can come to life for restaurant groups with technology. Um, I think there's a lot of precedent in the industry and we haven't quite cracked the code in a way [00:22:00] that allows restaurants like bartaco that still feel like a neighborhood spot to remain authentic and true to their neighborhood.

Um, and so I think the technology is getting sharper and sharper there, and will allow us to more efficiently reach people in a way that feels authentic still and not like another sponsored ad or a sponsored post. Um. Outside of technology, I think, you know, I'm excited to see how restaurateurs and restaurant groups respond to the pressures of 2025.

Um, it's definitely a more unique set of pressures, especially coming out of, um, you know, the past few years. So I think you'll see a lot of creativity and innovation around menu. Um, and I think you'll see a lot of innovation around how to break through that. Sea of sameness or the clutter that you see within the space.

Um, so I'm excited. 

Daniel: Yeah. What's the biggest change you see in a post covid world for, [00:23:00] for your world right now? Restaurants? 

Justine: Uh, yeah. I think restaurants right now are really competing more than ever for share of wallet, um, and getting that extra frequency. And so where consumers are becoming. More discerning about how they spend that extra dollar restaurants have to get creative, not only how to bring them in the door, but then also how to deliver unparalleled service at, you know, in a way that makes, makes sense for their operating model.

Daniel: Awesome. I love it. We will, uh, we'll wrap up with some fun ones that I ask everybody. What was your very first job growing up or, or otherwise? 

Justine: Yeah. Um, first job I was an intern for the American Red Cross. 

Daniel: How was that? 

Justine: Uh, you know, it was all around blood donation. I was gonna 

Daniel: say, yeah, I assume you're not, uh, blood seeing blood doesn't make you pass out then.

Justine: Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that wasn't for me. Uh, so I pivoted and then became a, an event planner and a server at a restaurant. I. 

Daniel: [00:24:00] Okay. Uh, what would your final meal be? And then the bonus question, since you're at bartaco, what do you order at bartaco? Uh, 

Justine: my final meal would probably be the Duck Tacos at bartaco, which is my go-to order 

Daniel: diplomatic answer for both.

I like. Uh, and then my final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? 

Justine: You know, I'm really into Mel Robbins right now. She has an incredible podcast. Let 

Daniel: let they'll let them, uh, theory. 

Justine: Yeah. Yeah. She's got an incredible podcast. She does a great job, I think. It's an easy listen and, um, really relevant to all parts of, of my life, professional and personal.

Daniel: Awesome. I love it. Uh, anything new at bartaco on the menu that people should check out or any upcoming, um, goodness you'd like to share before we, uh, we head out? We're coming into the lunch hour, so whenever I, I'll, I'll post this at like 10:00 AM or 11:00 AM We do it so people will get hungry leading up to it.

Justine: Yeah. We've got an incredible new happy hour menu rolling out at the beginning of April that we're super excited about, some really delicious light bites. [00:25:00] Um, and then we have some tried and true favorites that came out over the past few months in our rice bowls and our taco section that we just really can't get enough of.

So definitely hit us up. We are all over. Um, and hopefully in a location near you. 

Daniel: Hopefully you can, uh, you can attribute it back to this podcast if Yeah. Uh, if you've got it set up right. But no, I appreciate you joining. Thank you very much, and we will chat with you soon. 

Justine: Sounds good. Thank you.[00:26:00]