(Final Video) Jeff Crow - More is Missed By Not Looking, Than By Not Knowing

[00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

Daniel: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to podcast. I am your host, Daniel Wiener. Uh, you should talk to pairs, brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies because finding great agencies is time consuming and a pain, as we will talk about with today's guest, Jeff Crow, who is CEO of Tap, mango, and the first non-marketing seat in seat person on this podcast.

Jeff, thanks for joining. 

Jeff: Uh, thanks for having me. And I don't like being called a non-marketing person. 

Daniel: No title, not a non market. We're gonna get into all your marketing creds here shortly. Okay. Non non-Title. Uh, fair enough. Figure at the moment. Yeah, I aged out. You didn't age out. You just, you got a [00:02:00] cooler title.

You're a CEO. Fair enough. There you go. Uh, we will dive right in. First and foremost, what is tap mango? Uh, I know tap mango well, but for those listening who do not know tap mango, what do you got? 

Jeff: Tap Mango is a B2B SaaS platform that drives customer loyalty and engagement for retailers and QSRs, think Starbucks rewards.

But for Joe's Coffee Shop, we have all the functionality that you would want as a enterprise level brand, but we deliver it to the small business and sort of lower enterprise segment that can't do it on their own. 

Daniel: Love it. We're gonna get into your marketing chops right now. The first question, what is your most unpopular marketing opinion that you have over the course of your career?

Jeff: Oh, over the course of my career. Wow. Could be like sort of a, a current thing. Well, could, 

Daniel: could be present day, could be, could be back in the day. 

Jeff: So, uh, I'll share too 'cause they're related. So currently I will tell you that, um. AI is the greatest thing to, to happen in marketing, but not for the [00:03:00] reasons that people are thinking of.

Okay. So yes, it will, uh, it will make a lot of analytical tasks and rote tasks easier as we're just sort of figuring out. But the more we see ai, the more we realize that human expression and storytelling is really important. Um, I wrote an article on LinkedIn a year ago and then had. Had AI had chat, GPT generate the same article with the same prompts that I used.

And while there were certainly crossover between the two, there was also more empathy, emotion, thought, heart in the the human piece. And at the end of the day, anyone, any marketer worth their salt is a storyteller. And stories are people to people. They're not machine to people. So. As AI continues to evolve and it'll get better than it is today, um, and be more functional than it is today.

I think it will continue [00:04:00] to highlight the need for human storytelling and will make marketers more valuable, not less valuable. 

Daniel: I saw something on LinkedIn today actually, that I deeply agreed with and hadn't thought of it that way. That they're basically saying like, door to door sales, people are gonna come back, but it's gonna be in business.

Because if every email in your inbox in LinkedIn is generated by ai, nobody's gonna believe anything unless they can look you in the eyes and you actually tell them what you are, you know, selling and your promise and all that sort of stuff. 

Jeff: So that's great to hear, um, that somebody wrote that on LinkedIn.

I don't know what the source was. But we're making that bet at Tap Mango is that we're staffing up our salespeople, um, in regions around the country because philosophically, I still believe relationships are what sell the best. 

Daniel: I agree. That's how we met through our relationship. Correct. Shout out, uh, Jared Belsky.

I. Jerry 

Jeff: Belsky 

Daniel: doesn't need another 

Jeff: shout 

Daniel: out. I know. I was gonna say, he doesn't need me. He might need you. He doesn't need me. I can tell you that, uh, you've had quite the journey instead of experiences both [00:05:00] consumer, uh, and B2B, I would say we've got Coke, central Garden, and pet. We've got EarthLink, uh, core B-T-S-P-R-G-X, and now transitioning into the CEO seat.

Talk a little bit about that journey. My, my biggest question as you frame that up is what have you seen shift, uh, you know, from beginning of your career to now? If, if anything, maybe everything's, you know, the same. 

Jeff: Yeah. I mean, you look back on a career and it, you know, for most people, I don't think it's the path that you expected you're gonna take, like stuff happens, opportunities come and go.

You meet people. Like, so, uh, I look back on it and go, huh, yeah, never, I never would've bet on that. Um, I will tell you that coming outta business school, uh, shout out to university. Go blue devils. You guys play today, don't you? Play today at 9 49 and, um, hopefully on Saturday as well. 

Daniel: I've got Marilyn today, so my best friend coaches there.

So go, go TURPs and go blue. Uh, there you go. That that wouldn't 

Jeff: upset me at all if Marilyn pulled that victory out. Yeah. Anyway. [00:06:00] Um, but coming outta business school and it's, it's been a number of years. The best marketers were going to CPG companies. And so that's what I did. I started my career at Unilever, um, before I got to Coca-Cola, and that's between Unilever and Coca-Cola.

That's where I grew up. Fundamentally as a marketer, it's where I learned how to. Write a brief and work with an agency and why brand positioning was important and all the things that marketers today take for granted. And marketing has certainly evolved. Like performance marketing wasn't a thing when I started.

Sure. Um, just to put it in perspective, we used to get our Nielsen data at Unilever once a month delivered in. Three inch, three ring binders, that's all. You still have any I do not. I was gonna say that'd be worth something these days. 

Daniel: I do 

Jeff: not. Um, but yeah, it's a little bit different than, you know, how things go to market today.

And here's what I'll tell you is that back in the day, I sound a little get off my lawn, but, but back in the day. [00:07:00] I think marketers knew their customers or consumers, depending on the business you're working on better than we do today without the metrics because we were forced to listen, to listen, not just measure.

And you know, my dad, um, who's a retired physician, is fond of a statement that his dad taught him, which is more, is missed by not looking than by not knowing. And it's a beautiful statement, especially for a doctor. 

And so we know a lot today because it can all be measured, not all of it, but a lot of it can be measured. But I think we spend a lot less time today as, as marketing professionals. Digging deeply into what drives a purchase decision or consideration. And back in the day, back in the day, um, that's what we did.

'cause we didn't have the tools we have today. So, you know, I think like anything, the, the right mix is somewhere in between and there's certainly great value in the, the metrics we see today. But at the end of the day, you gotta know who's [00:08:00] buying your product And why 

Daniel: do you think social media ruined it all?

Jeff: I don't think it ruined it. I think it changed it. Right, like, so it's, it's much less expensive to put an ad on Facebook than it is to create a TV or a radio ad. And that's, by the way, another unpopular marketing opinion. I still think print has a role. I still think out of home has a role. I still think television has a role.

It's not the role they once were because there's this whole digital landscape that didn't exist back in the day, but a purely. For some brands, purely digital is absolutely the right thing to do. Sure. But for other brands, we're missing out on a great deal by only doing. Digital go to market. 

Daniel: Yeah. I think what I see with social, and I see other people talk about this often is brands often get hung up trying to chase trends and chase, uh, cultural relevance versus staying consistent and true to who they are.

And they end up, you know, as, as a mishmash where nobody knows what the hell they do or what they sell or what they stand for. [00:09:00] Um, which is why I think social is such like an interesting landscape these days. 

Jeff: I have a cartoon hanging on my Bolton board. I still have a Bolton board, by the way. I love it over here, um, with a, a little man, you know, a little man sitting behind a, uh, you know, a desk in an office, and he is on the phone and it says, tell me again what we're the leading provider of, right?

Like it's, and yeah. And in social or in digital, everyone's a leading provider of something, right? Like you can, you can find your niche, and that's not necessarily bad or wrong, but it should be. More overt than that. We don't do nearly enough brand positioning work today. I would argue largely. 'cause you don't have to because the, the marketplace's level of competition and degree of competition is different.

But largely because today's marketers, the youngins, don't know how to, 

Daniel: that's, that's what you're here for. You gotta, you gotta teach the next generation. Well, we'll see. That's the plan, uh, as a career [00:10:00] marketing title, not a career marketer. Uh, I'm curious, you were interacting with a CEO presumably in, in one way for a large portion of your career, and now you are, you are in that seat.

Uh, what's your best piece of advice for other marketing leaders out there on how to best work with their CEOs now that you are in the, in that position? 

Jeff: Um, it's a great question. I will tell you. So I was a CMO four times four different tech companies. Um, two of them were amongst my favorite career experiences ever, and two of them were amongst my least favorite career experiences ever.

And so I would tell any senior marketing executive aspiring to be the lead marketer with or without the CMO title is. Make sure you know what you're getting into. Um, the two CEOs I worked for as CMO, um, that I loved and still love today, and are, I still consider friends and mentors. And by the way, we had successful exits in both those situations.

That's, that's 

Daniel: helpful. 

Jeff: Uh, one in the public [00:11:00] markets and one in the private markets. Sure. Um, but both those guys respected marketing, understood that they weren't. Marketing experts and hired someone to fill that role so that their organizations could, the, the, the brands of those organizations could be built and integrated into the sales effort.

The two who I had a less than positive experience with. Um, and when we turn off the recording, I, I'll be happy for all these names. Um, though they know who they are. Um. We're just not like hired CMOs or senior marketing executives because their board told them to. They thought it was the right thing. But never let the department never embrace the department, never embrace me.

Maybe it was a personal thing, maybe it wasn't. Um, but if you're gonna hire a marketing leader, you gotta invest in marketing. And it sounds so simple, but I have plenty of friends who have [00:12:00] gone through exactly the same experiences I went through. And just came out scratching your head. And if I'm being honest, when I entered both of the less than positive ones, my mindset as a, you know, as a younger executive was, well, I can change this.

And maybe that's true. Maybe someone else could have, I couldn't. Um, and I didn't. 

Daniel: No, that's a very honest and fair, uh, assessment. I think, uh, I think that probably, or I guess I'm curious your opinion, does that go into the, the, you know, the notion of everybody thinks they're a marketer and often CEOs do as well?

Um, I. So everyone thinks 

Jeff: they're a marketer, and, and so by the way, the, the, the advice would be for CMOs to get along with their CEOs first, choose wisely, make sure that that's a conversation that, that CEO is, uh, is open to having 

Daniel: any specific, I'm curious to dial in even further. I feel like from what I hear from, uh, you're not the only person I've heard this from.

I won't share names, of course. Uh. Is there any specific question you recommend folks ask that really dial in? They get [00:13:00] through the bullshit truthfully, by the way. 

Jeff: Just ask, right? Like, just say, Hey, one of the things I'm concerned about in this organization is that marketing hasn't had a seat at the table.

If I'm hired as your CMO, what assurances can you give me? That marketing will have a seat at the, like it. I don't think it needs to be danced around. And I think when you go in and you have that conversation, you need to have the. Confidence to be able to ask that question in whatever way suits your style and the, the knowledge and sort of, um, self-actualization that if you don't get the answer you want, regardless of what they throw at you, you should walk away and find a different opportunity.

'cause it won't end well. 

Daniel: That's good advice. Um, most folks I talk to with your title, whether it's C-M-O-C-E-O, vp, whatever it is, you're getting hit up a hundred times a day on virtually every network, their phone's ringing, LinkedIn's, beeping, all that sort of stuff. I presume the case for you. Um, any advice, [00:14:00] uh, you know, when you're in or out of market to agencies, vendors, tech partners, all of them that presumably want your business, is there anything that can cut through the clutter when you are not particularly looking for what they provide?

Uh, I think relationships are 

Jeff: the key to every, every transaction. And so, um, reaching out when you're not trying to sell is as important as reaching out when you are trying to sell. We all sell. I get it. Um, but. Looking for a way to build a relationship so that when I'm in a position to need whatever it is you're selling, you're the first person I call, is really important, and I will react much better.

So every good salesperson looks for a hook. We went to the same school, we grew up in the same hometown. We both know Joe, right? Whoever it is. That's all well and good. And if I get an unsolicited, [00:15:00] uh, inquiry from someone says, Hey. We're both, uh, you know, we're both Duke grads. Um, I'd love to get together and talk about Duke basketball and share a little bit about what my company XYZ does.

I, if I have the time, I'm more than willing to have that conversation 'cause we've all been there and it's a much easier conversation for me to go into then. Hey, let me tell you about why my product's so great and why you need it, because the reality is you don't know enough about my business or my timeline or my market to know for sure that I need X unless I've submitted an RFP to you.

Daniel: Yeah, it's very, you're gonna get a ton of, uh, duke alumni reaching out to you, uh, after shortly after this podcast. Uh, we just ran an agency search together that, uh, ended up successful. Um, we won't name names 'cause there were winners and losers of course, to the process, but I'm curious throughout that process, you, you talked to three, uh, you whittled down to, to two hypothetically and ended up selecting one o over the course of the process.

Any, any [00:16:00] major takeaways or anything, you know, impactful that you didn't think would happen or, you know, overall opinions? 

Jeff: Um, so it's the first time I've ever run an agency search with an outside resource like yours. Um, that was partially a function of time and place, partially a function of more or less exactly what I just said.

When, you know, when your name came back up, I'm like, oh, I know Daniel. Like, yeah, we should have a conversation. We didn't know each other well and you know that, but that's okay. You had done exactly what I just. Articulated right, you know, a number of years ago. So we weren't strangers. And the reality is that the work that you do on an ongoing basis to cultivate a portfolio of, of agencies such that when you get a potential client reaching out to you and we write a brief together, saves me the trouble of, of doing it.

Um. In bigger companies. So back in my Coca-Cola days, I'm, [00:17:00] I suspect we would've scoffed at a resource like yours. Sure. Ah, what does he know that we don't know? Um, and maybe the answer is a lot, and maybe the answer is not a lot, I don't know. But for a smaller company like Tap Mango, it was exactly what we needed.

And all three agencies you connected me with. Could have done our job, you know, could have done our work. So it then becomes value fit, style, um, management routine, um, who put in the extra effort in the, you know, in the reply to our request for a proposal. Sure. And ultimately, I think we landed in a really great place.

Um, yeah, we'll just get, 

Daniel: we're just getting started. So, um, you'll come back if they mess it up. We'll, we'll talk about that. We'll do a, we'll do a follow up episode. 

Jeff: Well, I told you, I said to the, to the agency president directly when I awarded her the job or them the job, um, I said, this is my first CEO [00:18:00] game.

Don't screw this up for me. Yeah, I, uh, 

Daniel: I hope they don't as well. 

Jeff: I hope they, and they hope they don't as well. And I think more than any of you, I hope they don't. 

Daniel: Yeah, to to be totally like fair, you know, in the Koch example of why do they no more? I don't even have a good answer. It's not the first time, like bigger brands have said that.

I don't often work with procurement, but sometimes like procurement will see me as competition. And my question, my usual response is like, you actually probably know better than I, like you're in the company, you know, like we, we can work together, but. I don't know truthfully, like I've been scoffed at at some point in, in the fi last five years.

And the answer's usually like, yeah, I don't know if you, if you don't wanna work with me, I usually save you some time and energy. But I do think the time and the energy is the biggest thing. If I presented you a, like the agencies have to be the right fit, or you're like, what is Danny doing? Like, this saved me actually no time and made me spend more time.

'cause then you'd had to do it on your own. But yeah, I think the main thing is the time and the energy truthfully. 

Jeff: Well, yes, for sure. Um, and look, I've been at this long enough [00:19:00] that if I had had an agency partner in my past who fit the spec of what I needed, sure. I would've just called them. And that's not to diminish what you did.

Yeah, I agree. But we all work with people that we have great track records with. I just didn't have an agency that had the chops that I needed for this particular go to market. Approach and issue. And so that's, that's when I asked for help. 

Daniel: Yeah. Uh, in your, in your former life at some point over the course of your career, talk me through a negative agency experience you've had and what made it, uh, not so, not so great.

Jeff: The best agency client relationships, and I've never been on the agency side, just to be fair. So, in my opinion, the best agency client relationships are when the agency is. A little sharper than the client. Here's what I mean. That doesn't necessarily mean smarter though. It could, um, more in tune with what's going on in the market.

Um, more in [00:20:00] tune of what's going on from a trend standpoint, um, depending on the, the brand that you're trying to work, like you're hiring an agency both for their logistical, executional capabilities as well as their strategic insights That said. While I very much have viewed, you know, the best agencies I've worked with as extensions of my brand team, whether I was leading that brand team or just a part of it, at the end of the day, it's the client who makes the decision.

That's what the client and agency relationship is about in, you know, in virtually every instance. And so, Daniel, the direct answer to your question is. There were times at Coca-Cola and in hindsight, maybe they were right, but there were times at Coca-Cola where we would bring in, you know, hot agencies at the time.

Or even like, and that doesn't seem necessarily means big though. It could, it could just be this small little boutique that it had success on this. And they were advising us on that. And [00:21:00] philosophically the, you know, the talk track, while they probably never used these words, are. Well, you're wrong. You know, let's, let's just tell you like you don't know the, the market, and by the way, they might have been right.

But it's not, there's, there was, there's an arrogance in a number of agencies that I worked with that belied the agency client relationship. As a partnership and more as a, we're the experts. So let me tell you why you're wrong. You know, when you work with an attorney, when you work with an accountant, when you work with anyone who has skills that you need, um, again, strategic and executional, you're still in charge.

Like you take their counsel, um, or choose not to, but the ultimate decision is still yours. That's why. You pay them a fee, right? For their expertise. And so the answer to your question is, I've had some agency relationships in [00:22:00] my career, more at the bigger brands than at the mid-size and smaller brands where philosophically they just like, well, you're wrong.

This is gonna be terrible. Or we're, we're, we're right. You know, your opinion or your brand standard, your view of the competitive marketplace is faulty, and here's why. Certainly we, the client wasn't always right and certainly the agency wasn't always wrong, but when things get combative like that, in my experience, the communication goes away.

And more importantly, the trust erodes and then the results are typically not very good. 

Daniel: Yeah, I think that situation is something I hear often there's, it's finding the balance of, uh, I hear from plenty. We talked last week with a marketer who said the agency wasn't. Strategic enough, and the agency's argument is, you're the client.

You gave us the priorities, and the priorities then shifted and the brand wanted them to then push back. And it's really tough. I, I've worked at an agency, uh, and yeah, at the end of the day, I'm, I think I'm agreeing with you, [00:23:00] the, the client is the one who at some point you should respectfully push maybe once, but yeah, like at the end of the day, it's.

We, again, there's a, it's in delivery. We, we might disagree, but it's your, your call and we're here to, you know, make your life easier and, you know, uh, bolster you up, um, and stuff. So, yeah, it's, it's tough I feel for both sides in those, uh, scenarios. But yeah, if you come off arrogant and stuff like that, you've, you've got no patience for that.

Jeff: Well, and, and if I was running an agency team, and this is easy to say, 'cause I've never done it. I would push up until the point un until I was heard. I know I was heard if I was. Disputed. Like their opinion was X and mine was Y, and they went with X. That's fine. And then one of two things happens. Either X is right and you come to the next meeting going, wow, you were right.

X was right because of blah, blah, let's dig into that. Or X was wrong and Y was wrong. And you very strategically would say, let's not make that mistake together [00:24:00] again and. You know, let's, let's go back and examine the process and find out where we, you know, we're less than, less than Perfect. 

Daniel: Yeah, I agree.

What are you most, uh, bullish or excited on in the marketing space at the moment? I still think 

Jeff: good stories breakthrough more than anything else. And I'm, I also really applaud brands who are doing stuff differently than what's expected. Um. Media buys are expensive. No matter if you're spending $5,000 or you're spending $500 million, it's, it's expensive.

It's expensive to get yourself in front of your, um, your economic buyers. And so I get. Pretty amped up and excited when I see brands that are taking some chances knowing that not every chance they take is gonna work. And it could be in a lot of different ways. It could be with music, it could be with story, it could be with actors.

[00:25:00] Um, and I get, I mean, the Super Bowl's a perfect example, right? So like you're watching Super Bowl, you're seeing these ads. I've worked on Super Bowl, super Bowl ads before, back in the day. They did. Okay. Like I never had, you know, the number one ad meter or anything. Sure. Um, but I've also worked on some ads that have really driven business and really garnered, um, you know, some accolades from the industry and we took some chances on those.

And so I think great advertising has to have a modicum of risk. Um, and depending on. What your brand is, and whether you're the category leader, you're a challenger in the category, and it's a digital ad or a print ad, and like what the life could be dictates how, and, and the, frankly, the culture of your organization and your CEO, it dictates how much risk you can take.

But man, when that risk reward balance works in your favor as a marketer, it's, it's a [00:26:00] pretty cool feeling. And so. There was a, that's, that's how you 

Daniel: get the big job often if you're, if you're right on one of those risks. 

Jeff: Yeah. And, and by the way, just breaking through is, is half the battle, but you have to break through in a meaningful way that drives business.

Um, and that's, you know. I often see advertising and think to myself, and maybe this is why I evolved out of just being a marketer, um, for good or for bad, think, wow, that was really a great story. It's not linked to the brand at all, and it's not gonna move the needle. Yeah. And maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not.

Um, I suspect in that sense, I'm probably right more often than I'm not. But it's gotta be linked to what you're trying to do, not just feel good or be funny or generate an emotional response unless that emotional response is directly linked to the brand. 

Daniel: That's how I felt about, honestly, the, uh, the best ad, or in my opinion from this past Super Bowl was the, uh, the religious one.

The, uh. Was like [00:27:00] Jesus saves or something like that. I'm not a religious person by any means. It was deeply emotional. It actually made sense for what it was doing. I felt like every other ad just shoved as many celebrities as humanly possible into, uh, you know, into the spot. Yeah. 

Jeff: By the way, I think you're right in a lot of senses.

I'm trying to think if there was, so I loved the, the, the, what Harry Sally had at Kaus. It's like. There's two things wrong with that ad. Number one, it could have been for any condiment. It wasn't inextricably linked to Hellman's mayonnaise, which was the brand. And number two, I'm, I'm, I'm a Jewish guy. I enjoy a great Jewish deli.

There's, there's nothing better than Katz's Deli. What the hell are you using Hellman's mayonnaise on at Katz's Deli? 

Daniel: Not the pastrami, 

Jeff: not the past 

Daniel: or, or you're getting kicked outta my family. A hundred percent. And so Golden should have got their hands on it. A 

Jeff: hundred percent for, yes. There, there were so many other, I loved the story, the execution, the insight, the homage back to a, you know, a wonderful movie.

It [00:28:00] was poorly linked to the brand and I would say almost erroneously linked to that brand. 

Daniel: That's fair. 

Jeff: I'm with you. Uh, 

Daniel: who do you think is doing it well then, I think you were about to get there. Any, you know, brands I just wanna 

Jeff: add on, on LinkedIn as well that someone shared for Puma. Um, have you seen this ad?

Is it the dancing stuff? No, it's, it's just the, the visuals themselves are just people running and competing. What's innovative about it is it uses the musical, the music soundtrack is because I Got High, which is a, a, you know, a song about, yeah, about smoking pot. But they translated because I got high to mean a runner's high, and I thought it was fascinating and really.

Cleverly and Insightly and elegantly done. Um, if you didn't listen to the music and you just watched the ad, you'd be like, it's a running ad. Like there's nothing there. Yeah. But the two of them together and how unexpected it is [00:29:00] for the athlete that Puma is targeting is great. And I actually commented when I saw it, I was like, challenger brands need to take chances.

And a reply from the poster was, so do leading brands and I believe that I didn't get into the argument on LinkedIn, but like if I'm a leading brand, I don't take that chance. Okay. Um, for good or for bad? As a challenging brand, I gotta, you know, if I'm down eight runs I gotta swing for home runs. If I'm up eight runs singles and doubles work just fine.

Daniel: Yeah, 

Jeff: that's 

Daniel: fair. You think Nike just has to hit, 

Jeff: uh, singles and doubles? I think it's been a while since Nike's had some singles and doubles. I think Nike has been, um, you know, while they still, they may or may not be the market leader. I don't know. And I still, I don't think they are for 

Daniel: running if I'm, uh, if I'm remembering correctly, but, but the lot, 

Jeff: and, and when you're being chased by, you know, perfect metaphor, right?

When you're in a race and you're leading the race and you're [00:30:00] being chased by somebody who's a lot faster and a lot more flexible than you. You gotta at least maintain a pace that keeps you out ahead until you cross the finish line. And I think Nike has underestimated the pace that they need to maintain.

Daniel: I would agree there. I can't remember what it was. Oh wait, that 

Jeff: just came off the top of my head. I'm really proud of that. So if we could emphasize that metaphor 

Daniel: going forward, it'd be great. I will a hundred percent. I'll just post, I'll just post that. Um, what keeps you up or at night or stresses you out from a marketing or business standpoint, and is it different?

I presume now as the CEO. 

Jeff: It's definitely different as the CEO Um, when I get to do the marketing stuff as CEO, I don't wanna say it feels easy, 'cause it's not easy, but it feels comfortable. That's the better word. Um, what keeps me up is, look, we're a PE owned company. PE made it PE firm, made a big investment in, um, in buying the company and a big bet on me leading the company.

And so. Well, I never like to miss numbers in terms of [00:31:00] delivering results. Now it keeps me, you know, I'm, I'm still a pretty good sleeper, but it does good occupy my thoughts. 

Daniel: Good. Well, we'll finish with some fun ones here. Uh, what was your very first job growing up? 

Jeff: I was a camp counselor at the Jewish Community Center Day camp here, and it was.

One of my favorite, Ja, I ended up doing it for a number of summers. I made wonderful friends. I think the kids whose wellbeing I was entrusted to, um, to look after are now in their forties, so that's frightening. But that was my, I think my first summer for eight weeks of work, I made $350. 

Daniel: And you were probably happier than, uh, than in any other job, presumably.

Um, I don't 

Jeff: know about any other job, but it was a pretty good job. A lot of them. There you go. It was definitely Tanner. 

Daniel: Well, that's good. What would your final meal 

Jeff: be? Can I ask questions? Sure. I mean, final meal can mean so many things. 

Daniel: If you could pick, if you had, I've talked about the, [00:32:00] people have asked this before.

I'll give you, I'll rephrase. Uh, what would your final breakfast, lunch and dinner be? Or if that's easier today? Who, who? You got one day? You're done, you're done Tomorrow, you're, today's your last 

Jeff: day on 

Daniel: Earth. 

Jeff: Am I on death row or am I Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. What did I do to get on death row? 

Daniel: Uh, the petty larceny.

I don't know. A white cop, blue collar. Yeah. You were wrongly accused making a murderer style. 

Jeff: I don't know. See, as a foodie, self-professed foodie, that's a difficult question to answer. I would agree. I, I 

Daniel: am as 

Jeff: well. You know, it's like, it's like saying, what kid do you like the most? And like, well, it depends on the day.

I love them both. But like on any given day, I might love one 

Daniel: more than the other. I mean, for if it pings anything in your brain. I'm having a bagel and locks for breakfast. Uh, lunch stuff, but see, but, so let me push back on that. Like 

Jeff: love a good bagel in locks, right? It's gotta be a great bagel and really thinly sliced locks.

Well, 

Daniel: j this is a hypothetical. It can be whatever you want. Hey, but hang on a minute. 

Jeff: Yeah. But 

Daniel: if I have a 

Jeff: bagel in locks, 

Daniel: then I can't go to Waffle House. I. Right in this [00:33:00] hypothetical, I mean, yeah, you can't just bounce around to 75 things. That's why, 

Jeff: that's why I like, so like, I, I don't know, like I, I mean, if you ask me what, what would be the best question?

We're gonna, we're gonna be 

Daniel: here, I got a call in 45 minutes, so we're gonna have to wrap this up at, at some time. And so, so, so like, I think the, the question is fundamentally flawed 

Jeff: because there's not enough information. My podcast 

Daniel: is flawed. You know, 

Jeff: if you, if you were to ask me. Hey, you and I are going to lunch tomorrow.

Okay. What's the best possible lunch we could go have? Sure. So that gives me time. Let's, let's do that, 

Daniel: the context. If you could have one dinner. If you could eat one dinner at any restaurant in the world tonight, where would it be? Who am I with? Me. Wow. Okay. You're doing, you, do you say takeout? I don't want to go, um, we'll invite Jared too.

He can come. Okay. I. So it's three Jewish guys, three Jewish guys roll into dinner. Yeah. 

Jeff: Um, so there's probably some gastro issues. 

Daniel: Could Jared would pick the Chastain so that he doesn't have to leave his neighborhood? I know that [00:34:00] for fact. 

Jeff: Yeah. I would definitely not go to the Chastain. With all due respect to the Chastain, I'd have a drink there, but I wouldn't eat there.

Sorry, Jared. Um. All right, so we'll keep it local, right? Sure. And I would tell you there would be one of two places I would say we would go locally. Okay. Depending on how we were feeling. One would be Bones, which is Quintessential Steakhouse. And when Bones is on, it's as good as any steakhouse anywhere in the world.

It's not always on, but when it is on, it's the best. And number two, if we weren't feeling steak, I would say a restaurant that gets slept on here in town but is consistently outstanding in terms of. Experience, food service, et cetera. Is Soto Soto in In Highlands, fantastic. Live 

Daniel: down. Live down the street.

Yeah. No, I love both. Haven't been to Bones in a million years, but yeah. Excellent experience. Yeah. One of my unpopular food opinions, if I'm in the mo, if I'm in the market for an overpriced steak, I feel like most of those types of places, I [00:35:00] don't know that the difference, like if I'm going Hals, bones, chops, all that sort of stuff.

I think they 

Jeff: all serve different. Like, and I like all of those places. Yeah. Yeah. Hal's to me is more of a guy's night out. Like I'm more interested in the cocktails in the scene than the, the steak. Not that the steak's bad, but I'd argue that the stake at bones is better. Um, CHOP's a little bit more corporate.

So for the right group, it's a little quieter. It's a little clinger. It's like just it, there's, it's a, there's, you should start, you should start a blog. Uh, do you know Brad? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Brad, Brad sort of went down this, it's funny, like went down this road. I don't know if he still does it, but, um, Brad, we need your help.

But yes, I would, I would happily participate in that podcast as 

Daniel: well. Fair. And then my final question, may I hope I, maybe it's Jared, who knows? Uh, who's somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? Huh? It's not Jared. Not Jared. Good. Um, didn't wanna give him more credit on this podcast? 

Jeff: No.

Um. [00:36:00] You know, I have two adult sons, um, who are both college graduates and are both living in New York and are both actively chasing their dreams. One is a theatrical stage manager and one who works in amateur scouting for the New York Mets. And, and so they're both non-traditional careers. They're both very passionate about what they do.

Neither one of them are making a ton of money. Um, but. Both of them made independent decisions for something they loved that they were gonna work their asses off, coming right outta college to try to make it in. What they're most passionate about. And it's tough not to live vicariously through that. And everybody should love their work as much as those two kids love their work.

And then, uh, it's maybe not the most objective perspective 'cause you know, I am their father, but, um, I'm extraordinarily proud and, and inspired by both of them. 

Daniel: That's awesome. Before we [00:37:00] wrap up, since we're all about relationships, who do you want to talk to for tat Mango? If anybody out there in the ether is, uh, is listening, um.

Jeff: If 

Daniel: you 

Jeff: have access, access or knowledge about, uh, mid-size retailers or QSRs who are struggling to engage with their customers, uh, I got an idea for you. So, uh, tap mango.com. Give us a buzz. Love it. Thank you for joining, Jeff. Appreciate it. Good to see you. You too.[00:38:00]