Tony Billmeyer, CMO of Show-Me Organics, Should We All Get a Little High?

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This is you should talk to a podcast for busy marketing leaders who are looking for support and tips on getting shit done. In each episode, Daniel Wiener interviews marketing leaders and discusses their experience, successes, and. Failures around hiring [00:01:00] agencies. If you are interested in finding and choosing the right agency partner, then let's jump in.

Daniel: Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to Podcast. I am Daniel Wiener, your host, uh, and your sponsor, maybe not after today. You should talk to pairs, brands, and marketers for free, with edit agencies, for marketing and tech needs because finding great agencies is a pain and exhausting.

Uh, super excited today to be joined by Tony Billmeyer of C, the CMO at Show Me Organics. Tony, thank you for joining. 

Tony: Thanks for having me. 

Daniel: We'll, we'll kick it off. Uh, usually I ask what an unpopular opinion is, but I'll kick it off. We'll do it the flip side. This time, what is, show me organics. I know what it is and a, and a fan, but, uh, yeah, lay it on me.

Tony: Show me organics is, uh, one of the leading cannabis companies, uh, in Missouri. The Missouri market has surprised, I think, the whole cannabis industry at large, [00:02:00] uh, by, you know, creating one of the healthiest markets here and show me organics, operates vertically, integrated house of brands. So we have. Uh, blue Sage is our dispensary, uh, brand.

We have five stores throughout the state, and then we have, uh, some of the leading wholesale brands in the state as well. Vivid is our flagship brand that's targeted at a connoisseur, uh, cannabis consumer. And then we have Buoyant Bob, which is a very fun, whimsical value brand. Uh, and then a, a kind of locally, uh, inspired edibles brand called Missouri's Own Edibles that we'll do some cool partnerships with, uh, local.

Uh. Local chip makers or local coffee shops or what have you, and, uh, that, that, uh, is a fun brand as well. So yeah, we've got a kind of whole suite of brands and, uh, selling, uh, in more than 200 dispensaries throughout the state. 

Daniel: I love it. Huge. Uh, personal fan of, uh, cannabis as I transition out of, uh, being able to physically, uh, [00:03:00] handle alcohol, which, uh, knocks me out for, you know, 48 hours after having a drink.

But I'm curious, before we get into some of the marketing stuff, what's it like in general, just working in an industry that's. I don't know, regulated. Interesting. I don't even know how people talk about it. Liked by many the, you know, uh, some people are trying to get rid of it. In, in general. There's legislation and headlines.

A lot of misinformation I would say. And, uh, you know, a little bit of the wild, wild west. So, you know, all of that said, what's, what's it like? 

Tony: Yeah, it's definitely like unique among the regulated industries. I've, I've done, um, I've worked on Wells Fargo, I've done banking, I've done some FinTech and, uh, beer, uh, for MillerCoors, Anheuser-Busch, new Belgium.

So I, I have a lot of regulated industry experience. This is another realm of that where any, like, we could have woken up today and there could have been news of federal legalization, so like. You know, downstream of that, you have things like, you know, the state just [00:04:00] deciding, uh, that the packaging all needs to be one color today, uh, and so have to go.

And so it's, you really kind of get almost whiplash with these, uh, regulatory changes that you have to deal with that is very, very challenging and different from those other regulated, regulated industries. Um, but it's fun too because, you know, we get to pioneer a new space. So, um. Hopefully, uh, some of the things that, uh, some of the strategies and the ways we're thinking about it will set the tone for how cannabis marketing has done 20, 30 years from now.

Um, you know, because just like you do when you're jumping on, let's say you're gonna work on Miller Lite, you're gonna look at the history of that brand and how they've gotten there. Um, so it's very cool to like be building that foundation that we think hopefully people will be looking back on in the future.

Daniel: I love it. One more personal question, just 'cause I'm curious, maybe a stupid one, but I, uh, I'll ask it anyways. Are you, uh, is federal legalization necessarily a positive for you all or do you [00:05:00] benefit from it being early and kind of, you know, some people scared to maybe enter the market and stuff like that?

Tony: I think given our position in the market as sort of a leader here, um, yes, it's a huge benefit to us. Uh, we would, you know, actively try to try to utilize that as, you know, a catalyst for growth. Um, so yes, it, it is a massive, uh, opportunity. I think how it's legalized definitely matters, uh, in terms of, you know, our ability for, um.

Interstate commerce and that sort of thing. So obviously all that's off the table right now, and we'd have to figure that out. Every state has widely d dramatically different laws, so, you know, depending on what the federal law becomes, uh, it could be hugely beneficial. 

Daniel: Love it. Uh, cool. Well, we'll watch out for that.

Uh, what's an unpopular opinion you have in the marketing world or, uh, your, your hot take of sorts? 

Tony: It's my hot take in marketing. Um, I think I have a few, um, 

Daniel: [00:06:00] lay, lay 'em on. We'll, rapid fire 'em. 

Tony: No, I, I'll start with, you know, I think, um, the, all, all the rapid changes going on, not without, you know, giving the exhaustive list.

I think we're being pushed to a point now in marketing where, um, we're being forced to push. In, internally pushed into product and, you know, not just allow our, our discipline to be re resign to communication. So like, you know, I think when I got into the advertising business, which was, you know, like I graduated in 2013, um, that was maybe like in the middle of sort of this established, uh.

The products are developed by a different group in the, in the company, and then by the time and a, a brief gets to an agency, it's pure communication. Whereas, you know, I think at the beginning of, of advertising agencies and, you know, and, and [00:07:00] even throughout the, the eighties and and nineties there were, there were opportunities for creatives to be involved with inspiring what the product might be or, you know, uh, having some, some impact on that side of the house.

And so I think. Um, I think it's coming back, which is cool. Um, and, and I think, you know, there's a lot of, there are a lot of reasons for that. Um, but that is exciting to me. And I think, um, the ones the most successful, the people I look at and I'm like, jealous of are the ones who are doing that. The ones who are inspiring, you know, a new product line, a new s skew, even a new seasonal, uh, you know, packaging or something that, that changes how they, how they operate.

So. Um, yeah, like getting just stuck in communication is definitely, uh, kind of dooming your marketing team, you know, for failure. 

Daniel: Yeah. I think, uh, to play devil's advocate, I hear from folks on the other side who are like, oh my God, I [00:08:00] was hired to do X, Y, and Z and or, I'm interviewing for jobs and these are 50 jobs.

Put together, you know, uh, you know, I'm a, I'm interviewing to be a CMO and they want me to be a content creator and have hands on keys and understand all of the networks and all of these different things. So I think it's, uh, to your point, some, some are excited and those probably will be the ones to, uh, succeed and, you know, get some of these open roles and, you know, uh, excel in their current roles.

But, yeah, I, I don't envy the, uh, the CMO role. Truthfully, it is so many things, uh, and so many jobs. That's true all at once. 

Tony: Yeah, it, it is true. Um, and I did have the benefit of, like, before I took this job and got got into cannabis, I was, um, an account director at a small agency, Eric and Coleman. And, uh, we, you know, worked with big and small clients.

I had Hershey and I also had, uh, you know, we had the first campaign for Lucid Motors and we helped bring landing a new apartment [00:09:00] rental service to market. And so kind of got the, the. The whole, uh, both ends of the spectrum on, on how these, uh, chief marketers and, you know, heads of, of marketing departments work.

And yeah, that's something I saw was like, there's almost always for a small team in a startup or high growth company, there's almost always more on the chief marketing officer, the head marketer's plate than one human can possibly do. That said, I think the ones who win and are successful are the ones who are able to sort of focus their company on what actually matters for the business and what actually matters for the brands.

Um, and so I saw that almost like, you know, it was helpful to know that like these very brilliant people I got to work with were also having challenges of, you know, just dealing internally with all the balls being thrown at them and knowing that like, okay, that's part of it. The part of it is. Being the catcher and knowing which balls to throw back and which balls to [00:10:00] throw to the dugout kind of thing.

Daniel: Yeah, no, that's a good segue. You're, uh, not, not just saying this 'cause you're here, you are my, uh, you know, uh, favorite type of guest. The one who, since I work in between brands and agencies, I always seek out the ones who started at agency. Ended up at Brand. Uh, I'm curious about that transition and just hearing about, you know, the journey, uh, of your career so far to a certain degree, and just what you've seen around consumer behavior over that time period.

Do you think your, you know, agency experience sets you up for success? You have a, a newfound respect for agencies, I imagine, in your current role, but yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. 

Tony: Yeah. Um, cool. I, I, I started, um. Uh, you know, from intern to account director, kind of did all of those jobs in between.

Um, also have run the gambit on, you know. Retail, marketing, digital, uh, you know, big idea TV advertising, uh, experiential. I've [00:11:00] kind of done all of the disciplines as well as a myriad of different industries. So everything from, you know, I mentioned banking and candy to, you know, beer, to, uh, automotive and health.

Uh, so I've really done a lot of different things. Um, and what that's helped me realize, and maybe this is another hot take, is like. I don't really think that, I value marketing expertise. I think more than like domain expertise. I think a lot of, especially in cannabis, there's a tendency for people to think that what we do in marketing for cannabis is different than marketing everything else.

I think that there are more similarities than differences actually. And um, it's helpful to like. Have the breadth of experience to be able to say this and to sit where I, I do now. Uh, you know, I, I, like I said, started as an intern. I, I worked in Chicago for three years working on Miller Lite retail advertising.

Uh, then I went to San Francisco and got to, [00:12:00] really, what I was trying to do is get to the work that I admired the most and get as close as possible to like the kinds of creative that I wanted to be a part of. Which was like wacky off the wall, you know, really crazy TV ads. And so, you know, I ended up, uh, first at BBDO in San Francisco and then Goodby Silverstein, and then ultimately at Eric and Coleman, um, before moving back to St.

Louis where I'm from, uh, to do the cannabis thing. But what that kind of, that perspective gave me was, um, like. Really breaking things down to, okay, it's not about the category convention so much as like just understanding the customer in each of those specific domains. So like, um, rather than, you know, starting from a place of here is, here are the places we can advertise as a cannabis business.

It's, no. It's like, how do we get our brands in front of the ideal customer? How, who we want to do. So, you know, I think that is. Inspirational into some of the, the [00:13:00] marketing that we've done. So like, you know, like I mentioned, we do some partnerships. The biggest, uh, kind of mainstream, uh, success of any campaign we had, we did a partnership with like a St.

Louis chip brand, which, you know, is known Nelly wrapped about it. Murphy Lee, you know, like the, like it's part of our culture here. They're called Red Hot Triplets. And so, you know. In lieu of having money to go hire a Nelly to, to endorse our products. Sure. We would kind of utilize the, the local love for these brands to get ourselves into the mainstream.

And so, you know, hitting up, uh, the chip company and basically being like, Hey, what did you think about, you know, some shared, you know, earned press that we could get just by making a TC infused version of your product and putting it on our shelves. Uh, and so I think. Did that take some 

Daniel: convincing or were they uh, they in, uh, early 

Tony: to their credit, they like, that's their model.

They do partnerships and, you know, they have a really small, scrappy [00:14:00] team and so they saw the potential of what we were talking about. It's like, oh yeah, let's go, let's do it. So yeah, they saw it from the beginning. Uh, that's old Vienna here in Missouri. And, uh, yeah. Credit to them and, and they've been amazing partners to us.

You know, as, as cannabis goes, they changed the rules in, in Missouri and made it so that we can't make infused THC infused versions of products that are sold on the grocery shelf. So it was kind of short-lived, but, uh, you know, we had a, a good run there and it, it did what we needed to do. It got us a bunch of press.

It got, you know, people talking about red out ripples just as much as the dispensaries and our brands as well. So, um, but I think. Had we had, I sort of come straight from 10 years of working in cannabis or something like that. You know, I don't think you end up in that creative space because you think much more about like the guardrails of what we're able to do and what we can't do and that sort of thing.

And so I, you know, I think it breaking it down to like, how do we reach the customers and how do we [00:15:00] get in front of the people we wanna get in front of, allows you to think more broadly and get kind of around some of the category convention. 

Daniel: Yeah, I think it's good advice. Truthfully, I think the biggest thing, I've become incredibly cynical towards marketing in general for, uh, I think for the better of what I do.

Um, but yeah, I think marketers drink their own Kool-Aid a lot and everything probably comes back to what does our customer actually want versus marketing tactics. But it's interesting talking about domain expertise versus, you know. Marketing knowledge and stuff like that. It's a common conversation I have with CMOs around agency searches is, you know, we're in this space and my first question is, do you want somebody with a ton of experience in that space?

And the friendly reminder I give often is, you know, having domain expertise and having a ton of clients in that space. Cannabis, for example, doesn't necessarily mean what that agency does for you is any good. It just makes you sleep at night. You know, it makes you sleep better thinking, well, if these 10 clients hired them, like.

Surely they can't entirely screw this up for us. And it's usually split about 50 50 of marketing [00:16:00] leaders I talk to say, yeah, you know, I care more about X, Y, and z versus that they have five or six clients that look and feel like us. So it's interesting to hear that perspective. 

Tony: I, I would add though, I think, you know, part of it comes from like fatigue around having to educate in like all the nuances of cannabis marketing, for example.

So I will go for like. Social media in cannabis is the hardest thing. You know, meta just sort of has these rules that they decide to enforce at random times. And we'll, what we, we've probably had more than 10 accounts taken down. Uh, you know, just from trying to really like live in the safe zone, but pushing up against what we, you know, what we can do.

Um, and so. For social media, I've hired the best, uh, freelance. Uh, her name's Liz Del. She's amazing. She's done some of the best, biggest cannabis brands. So like for social media and cannabis. Yeah, absolutely. Give me the domain expertise, but I think in terms of like who's [00:17:00] driving the ship and who's seeing sort of how all these things come together, it's more helpful to have that kind of broad marketing knowledge.

Daniel: Totally fair. We've got four months left of the year. What's your best advice to other marketing leaders out there about how to finish 2025 strong? 

Tony: It's a good question. Um, 

Daniel: only good questions here, Tony. You know? 

Tony: Yeah. I think, um, the, the biggest thing for me is the. S thinking about 2026 probably, you know, with, with the time we have left, you know, I obviously, whatever kind of strategy and plans you have in place need to be executed to their fullest for the next four or five months.

But, um, beyond that, like we now's the time to be thinking about how do I want the brand to show up in 26, 27, 29, 30? You know, like, think, thinking ahead a little bit because, um. It is, this is the time of year, especially when like, you, you get into the [00:18:00] weeds and you're in execution mode. And so it's very helpful, you know, you know, planning has already happened for us, but, uh, even after planning and as you're starting to put the, the chips in place for, you know, your next moves, I think having some consideration for, okay, how do we get from.

The day-to-day executional work that we're doing now, what does that look like? The bridge, you know, like, am I gonna need more personnel? Am I gonna need to bring on, uh, an agency partner, and that sort of thing? So, uh, a lot of times those thoughts kind of happen after you, you start getting in motion on, on a project.

So it's helpful to, because as you know, the, the search for. Personnel agency, what have you, is better done with more time. Um, so if you can kind of preempt that a little bit before you actually need to go out and hire them, uh, and, and start to think about it, you'll probably end up in a better place with better people.

Daniel: That's good advice. [00:19:00] I find very few brands preempt that stuff. It's usually like a frantic, like, oh shit, we should, we should find an agency. Let's do that tomorrow. You know, and then very, I'll get a frantic email's very, 

Tony: because, because when you need 'em, you need 'em today, you know? So. Um, yeah, that, that's, that would be my advice, I think is, is doing it a little bit before then.

Daniel: Most CMOs that I chat with, uh, or VPs, I should say VPs and above, uh, are getting hit up 7,000 times a day, largely on LinkedIn, but email, text, phone, the whole shebang, uh, basically everywhere. Is that the case for you? 

Tony: Yeah. 

Daniel: Is there a, uh, we, we just gave your PSA to other marketing leaders. You've come from agency side.

I'm curious is, you know, if you had to look into the camera directly and give, you know, a message to the agencies out there, my message would be, which I, you know, frequently post about on LinkedIn would be chill out guys. Um, is there anything you would say to the agencies? You say, oh, we would love to work with you.

You know, is there anything an agency can say to you [00:20:00] to, to break through the noise when you're not in market for an agency, for example? Um, no. Or not wildly turn you off or piss you off? No, no is a fair answer. I think the answer is no, and I think CMOs are afraid to say it, so, 

Tony: yeah. No, and, and my message would be like, don't cold email me.

Uh, unless you, you're really like providing some unique value, which like, okay. I guess I'll think of the couple of cold emails that I have responded to. One was like, um, a. A platform that basically could take our products and give a, you know, an um, a web app version of being able, because when you go into a dispensary, especially in Missouri, you can't really look at the products.

Everything's kind of, you know, locked up and in packaging that you can't really see. So, sure. I had, uh, somebody email me a beta of like, Hey, we can take your flower, scan it, 3D you know, this is, this is what it would look like. So I got [00:21:00] like. E emailed in my inbox like, Hey, this is a beta of something that we think would be perfect for your product.

And I looked at it, and like, as somebody who comes from agencies, I think, you know, I'm pretty adept at like evaluating creative products and even in, you know, uh, early stages. And so like when you have something like that and you open it and you feel something, there's like, oh. That's what I want my customers to feel.

So there's something here I need to, I need to go chase down what, what, what that is. Um, but in terms of like general creative agencies, you know, I think we're now in a stage where like, um, I don't think AI is completely transforming the process as much as it's consolidating, uh, the time it takes to do certain aspects of the process.

And one of those things is like research and strategy. Um, I think that a [00:22:00] smart move if I were running an agency would be to like, really pick your five, six, you know, target ideal clients and bake strategy for them. And then obviously have a creative portfolio to say like, Hey, this is what these things could potentially turn into without doing that work for them.

Because the strategy piece can. You know, what used to take a month, can take a week, uh, in terms of like, I'm gonna delve into the company, the competition, the customer and the culture, and figure out how all this stuff comes together that can be done, not, you know, with not too much time, uh, as, as much as it used to, at least.

So I think like showing your strategic chops in preemptively is a good way to get. In the door with someone, especially if you're like on point with what you're saying, uh, because that's essentially what you would do in the first two rounds of a pitch anyway. So why [00:23:00] not just kind of skip the line and, and do the work and, and submit that, you know?

So I think that's, that's what I would do. 

Daniel: I'll give you a, a devil's advocate for this. I'm blank. I wish I could think of who it was, who was on this podcast, who talked about that, and how it's, somebody had done that and they hated it because, uh, it felt presumptuous. It was like, you know, you know us better than we know ourselves, you know, and I didn't ask you to do that, which is why, again, all of this stuff, I think it's incredible advice and I think most agencies listening know that that's.

What they should do is pick five or six groups. They all refuse. There's so few because they all wanna do everything at scale. They wanna send 50,000 emails at once and they want to hit 10,000 CMOs instead of five CMOs, you know? But, uh, yeah, everything I preach is know your audience. So, um, no, it's interesting, especially coming from the agency side of knowing, knowing the plight of, uh, of the agency 

Tony: For sure.

And, and, um, I would, I would argue that if done well. That CMO who might have been offended by that [00:24:00] agency's presumptuous cold email, had there been a nugget of like, oh, I didn't think about it like that in there. 

Daniel: Probably they would've 

Tony: thought about it differently, you know? Yeah. 

Daniel: They probably just didn't send good strategy or good insight.

Tony: It's, it's in the contents. 

Daniel: Yeah, for sure. Uh, um, this is in particular to your current role, but also, uh, super interested based on your experience. Uh, I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID. Quote unquote, bigger brands moving towards smaller independent agencies, specialized in like one to two services.

You know, every agency I work with, which is now hundreds, uh, are independent. They're all, the broad swath is like 15 headcount on the low end to like, I think the biggest agency I work with is 300 headcount, something like that. What do you think of that? Trend. I think the biggest thing I see is every big brand I talk to with a name, you know, they say the same things.

We want. Small and nimble. Small and nimble, small and nimble. Uh, their big agencies can't keep up with the pace. What do you think of all that? 

Tony: I mean, this is, [00:25:00] this is just downstream of the consolidation that is a macro trend in the market, right? Like, um, I worked for Omnicom for majority of my advertising career.

I think, um. They managed, or like, generally, not, not them specifically, but the, the holding companies generally for a while managed to, like, acquire these companies and retain generally what the magic of the, those companies were for long enough that they could continue to grow and, and benefit from, you know, the work that they were doing.

Were now at a point where like they're, they're starting to rip the band-aids on like, oh. We're just gonna give everyone the same email address. We're going to, uh, you know, treat our 25, 30 whatever agencies as one big company. And so, like, downstream of that is like CMOs being like, well, I, I know that the reason my last agency was successful is because of the three humans, the strategists, the [00:26:00] creative director, and the account, whatever it was.

Those, those were the people that made this work great. And like, I think. The closer, the more you work with agencies and the closer you get to doing this type of work, the easier it is to see that. Like it is very, very personnel driven. And so, um, seeking out the humans you wanna work with is becoming the trend because the faceless conglomerate is like, kind of take, you know, they've ripped the bandaid off of like, oh, these separate entities that we operate, uh, you know.

They don't necessarily need to be distinct from each other. They don't necessarily need to do, specialize this or specialize that. So, um, it worked for a while, but I think that's, that's why this kind of upheaval is happening in the, in the agency world. 

Daniel: I talk about it frequently in my, uh, my LinkedIn dribble.

But, uh, I think the biggest, I think so many agencies do not realize, or are willing to admit largely the, the owner of the agency or the figurehead, the CEO, whoever it is, [00:27:00] are willing to admit. How many millions of dollars are presumably hinging on like one person's relationship or one person's work or contributions or just keeping it on the rails?

And if you pointed that out, which I've done in the past, you know, no, no. Like the name of the agency, you know, is what's keeping them here and stuff like that. And it's usually hinging on one person and they usually don't find out until it's too late, that person leaves and magically that client is like, eh, I think we're gonna go with them.

To wherever they're going. So I completely agree on that. I think everybody's just a little, uh, scared to admit that. 

Tony: Yeah. 

Daniel: Without, uh, without naming names, or at least on the negative side, uh, can you think of a really negative agency experience you've had either in the past at an agency or in your current role hiring agencies and what made it so negative?

Tony: Yeah. Uh, early on I definitely had like, um. Not the best experiences at agencies working, you know, in my [00:28:00] career. And I think, um, it was maybe the most beneficial thing for me was to start at an agency that wasn't, you know, A-B-B-D-O or a good B Silverstein that wasn't already killing it. And like seeing what caused that.

You know, and I, I don't think you, I know knew it when I was a junior there, even you just see it later down the line of like, oh. Really just saying yes to the client always is why the work is uninspired, is why our value is not seen by the clients. Um, so like that ability to say, no, we know better than you is like a hallmark of a great agency.

And so like, it helps me knowing as well that like, I'm looking for that a little bit of like, um, you know, in, in hiring an agency. And then, you know, on my, in my current role, I think. I haven't really had any terrible experiences with, with agencies we've hired. But in talking with prospective agencies, um, you know, [00:29:00] trying to, um, position themselves as like, you know.

We are the digital marketers, we're the experts. It's like, yeah, I hope so. You know, like te very basic things like that of like, sure, you know, we have experience doing and they're just explaining that how the technology works or how media buying works or how this works. And like, you know, having been on their side of the, the seat, uh, before I've, like, it's easy for me to detect like.

The hard sell on capabilities when they're not like, talk about the work. You know, tell me like specifically what you did and you know, how, how it delivered results rather than, uh, you know, the sort of intangible we are these people kind of thing. 

Daniel: Yeah, I have to, when I'm doing like a more formal RFP process and it gets to pitch, I have to remind folks, which again, it hurts agency's feelings sometimes.

I always confirm with the brand. I'm like, they just do not give a shit about so many things, you know, which is [00:30:00] usually like the first 15 minutes of a, of a pitch. I'm like, they don't care about those things. Those things, they just wanna get to the meat. And people, sometimes they're like, what do you mean they don't wanna hear about our awards?

I'm like, they don't even know what those awards are. Like, they just want to talk to normal human beings. So, uh, yeah, I think a lot of time is wasted on You're already in the room. I'm, I have to remind people, I'm like, you're here. You don't have to sell anymore. Like, just. Talk about what you would do, you know, in the relationship.

Tony: And a lot of those things they're saying should be almost proof points underneath examples of work rather than like the thing that drives the conversation. It's like, it's not that you won all those awards, it's that you did this work and you know, these awards came after. 

Daniel: Yeah, I agree. Let's talk about a positive agency experience.

Uh, I, I usually say without naming names for, for no free press here, you know, but, uh, yeah. What's a, what's a positive experience you've had either working on agency or hiring agencies? 

Tony: Um, I've had so many. I, um, love Bandits and friends in [00:31:00] New York. Uh, they were founded by, uh, two creatives who I worked with at Goodby Silverstein, uh, Danny Gonzalez and Dave Su Suarez.

Uh, and Courtney Berry, they, they brought on as well as the three founders. Um, you know, I think like. It's, they do the type of work better. What, what made it good? 

Daniel: I'm curious. I'm sorry. In particular, what made it, before you even get into it, just I, I'm always curious in this particular one, which is why I interrupted, apologies.

What made it good? Like my one hot take is the work doesn't matter, which of course the work matters. But you already mentioned you knew them from a previous life, your relationship, I'm guessing they do pretty good work. But when you say it was positive, is it the work, is it you that they got you? Like what was it in particular?

Tony: I mean, the. Lasting feeling of positivity is because of the work. The work was great, um, but it more from like a 30,000 foot view. We were perfect partners at the right stages of our companies. You know, they were just starting out and [00:32:00] now they're more expensive than anyone I could hire, you know, realistically.

But we developed this relationship because, you know. It was positive for both parties at the time. Uh, you know, they were, they were just, just forming. Uh, you know, now they have the Liberty Mutual account and they have all kinds of great work that that's out in the world. Um, but when we were starting, you know, we were sort of on equal footing in terms of like, yeah, we are at ground zero also, and we also wanna build sort of a behemoth, uh, in, in our little domain here in Missouri.

Um, and so, you know. Sort of finding a partner with the same goals. You know, even though their, their goals are their goals and our goals are ours, where the work together is gonna get us to the same place, uh, is definitely helpful. And they've done several campaigns for us. But like, you know, the other thing that's important from my seat is, uh.

I am a, you know, brand, first person. I believe in [00:33:00] brand and would love to spend, you know, 60 or more percent of our budget on doing brand building work. But everything we do has to drive results, you know, just like most kind of high growth or, or startup industries. And so, um, finding a campaign that. Could deliver results and build the brand was pretty important to us.

And so we did, uh, early on a holiday camp, we've done now done it twice, uh, and are getting ready for a third year, but doing something where like we can kind of position our brand as the premium in the market by doing a holiday box that, you know, you can come and get three jar, four jars of flour or three jars of flour and get a wooden box that allows you to give cannabis as a gift.

Um, you know, and last year we kind of uncovered the insight that. Um, even though a lot of people give cannabis as a gift that happens, like, you know, sometimes folks will have to give their cousin a t-shirt in a box and then out back later on, they're gonna give the [00:34:00] actual gift that they wanted to give them.

So, last year, you know, based on that insight, we came out with, like, if you can see over my shoulder there, right there, there's like a wine bottle that opens up and holds three jars in it. It says vivid on the wine bottle, if you know, you know, but like that would allow someone to wrap it, give it in front of their family and then, you know, hopefully we think that would help start a conversation around like, well, why can't cannabis be a normal gift that we give in front of everyone else?

You know, especially if it's, I love 

Daniel: it, 

Tony: you know, well packaged and not gonna stink up the house and whatever else. 

Daniel: I'll pull, uh, I have, I host private dinners in Atlanta for CMOs and uh, I usually give a custom gift. You know, I've given out like a coffee table book of Atlanta and for the last one that I did, it's not, I haven't given out THC yet.

But, uh, CBD, uh, stress Relief gummies agency, stress relief gummies for the CMOs dealing with agencies. So, uh, yeah, I actually saw somebody, uh, Kyle Lacey, who was on the podcast yesterday, had posted, you know, he's been sober for. A year, you know, in the amount [00:35:00] of, uh, liquor bottles that show up from vendors at his place.

And it's just such an obscene, astronomical, miss, uh, you know, I don't know if he was or is, but you know, he mentioned, you know, let alone if somebody has an actual problem, you know, and you, you send them that as a gift, it's wild. So, uh, no, I love the, uh, love, the love the touch. 

Tony: Thank you. 

Daniel: Uh, what are you most excited about in the marketing space at the moment?

I'm, I'm hoping you don't say ai, but I'll take it only because everybody, that's, that's the easy answer if you say ai. No, no, I'm not. 

Tony: Uh, actually, I'm most excited that like we are starting to break into mainstream advertising channels in cannabis, which is pretty exciting. We have our first campaign running on, uh, the local NBC affiliate on TV in, uh, Kansas City.

We are, uh, looking to break into similar other TV markets throughout the, the state of Missouri. Um, so starting to see some of these things open up is awesome, uh, because [00:36:00] as you know, like. Foundational to what we do is the ability to tell an emotional story and to, you know, really attach emotion to our brands, which is really hard to do with just packaging and billboards and, you know, website, uh, kind of thing.

So, uh, video, uh, you know, especially, you know, having kind of agency partners like Bandits and friends who are, you know, experts at film and video. Um. That's really like unlocking, uh, you know, new things for us to, to be able to talk about and for us to be creatively, you know, we obviously can't show flower or we can't even say cannabis, but we can, you know, advertise the location of a dispensary.

We can talk about problems we're solving and we can speak to, um, you know. A lot of, okay. So I think we're also at, at this kind of maturation point, at least in the Missouri market, we're, you know, you're past it in California and you're past it in Washington and several other places. But, um, when legalization opens up in any new market there, [00:37:00] all of the marketing tends to be bottom funnel messaging, even if it's a billboard because.

There's just this rush of customers and so it works. Like it does work. Yeah. Yeah. Basically go out there and say, Hey, 25% off your first visit, or, you know, free gummy, free freeroll, whatever. Like the bottom funnel mar messaging kind of is how most of these brands get established, which, you know, was not ideal.

Um, but the fact that we've kind of now reached this maturation point where, okay, people know where the dispensaries are, people know that cannabis is legal. But now we need to speak to like, how do we grow the pie? How do we get new people into the market? That having TV to be able to do that is, is critical.

So, you know, now instead of just talking to Joe, who is going to a dispensary twice a week, I can talk to, you know, grandma Joe, who, uh, is sitting on the sidelines and is curious about dispensaries and thinks it might help her sleep or [00:38:00] solve a achy pain or whatever. Uh, I can talk to a new audience and try to bring new people into the, into the fold.

So, um, new channels opening up for cannabis is by far the most exciting thing for me. 

Daniel: That's awesome. What keeps you up at night or stresses you out from a, a marketing or a business standpoint? 

Tony: Man, it's gotta be the regulatory changes for, for what we do. Um, there's always something in like, you know, uh.

Credit to our regulatory bodies. They, they're doing it on behalf of consumer and child safety. And so, like, we are all for that. Um, but sometimes that manifests in things that, for marketers is very hard to understand. It's like, uh, you know, earlier or about, about a year and a half ago now, we had to change all of our packaging to one color.

Um, exactly. So it's like that seems 

Daniel: that, what, what was the reason? 

Tony: Um, appealing to children, you know, bright rainbow colors, I guess appeal to children, whatever, but, um, [00:39:00] yeah, exactly. So like, while we align with the intent and respect the effort of our regulatory body to, to, you know, basically bring these things into compliance, sometimes it manifests in things that make no sense from a marketing standpoint and actually make it like harder for the customer to understand.

How much time 

Daniel: do you get to implement, um. 

Tony: It took like six months basically. Um, but they kept, they 

Daniel: give you that time though, or they're like, you need to do this tomorrow. They just don't enforce it? 

Tony: No, no. They give us time and like, you know, there's usually a little bit of a back and forth, like, Hey, we have 500,000 jars in stock that we need to move through, uh, before we can do that, or whatever.

So yeah, I mean, it's um. As unreasonable as the requests are, the implementation has been, you know, uh, more reasonable I would say. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's, uh, like tomorrow, that could change or we can hear that. A, a pa, you know, this happened two weeks ago. We [00:40:00] heard that a package that had been selling and approved for over a year was no longer approved because they decide, you know, new enforcement on the color rule or whatever it was.

So, um, it is wild from a. A marketing standpoint. 

Daniel: Well, if you need help sleeping, you've got plenty of, uh, plenty of product. That's right. To, uh, support that. Uh, we'll, we'll finish with some fun ones here. What was your very first job? 

Tony: Very, very first, like not even in, uh, this space was a lot of manual labor.

I did, I worked at a auto parts warehouse, a grass seed warehouse. And you know, by the time I was a freshman in college, I was, uh, working on the grounds grounds crew for the Mizzou sports fields. Um, okay. So that was a fun one, but like, just tons of like odd job, manual labor making, just really, really small amounts of money.

Daniel: I always ask anything from those jobs you've taken into your current role, whether you, uh, realized it before this question or not. 

Tony: I think just [00:41:00] like a feeling of gratitude. To be able to do what we do and to not have to do that type of work is the biggest thing. And like, you know, a sense of hard work as part of that.

Like yeah, we get to do something and sit in a comfortable chair all day and you know, talk about fun products and stuff, but. As the fortunate ones to be able to do that. It's co it's incumbent on us to put in the work to do right. By the business and the customer and, you know, all of those things. So, um, yeah, I think just more of like, it helped shape my, how I approach my work more than like any specific skill or anything like that.

Daniel: Gratitude's a good thing. What would your final meal be? 

Tony: I am, um. Super. Like I'm a kind of a health nut and I eat a lot of fruit, so I would, it would, there would definitely be like a, um, acai bowl in there. There would be, you know, some kind of, uh, [00:42:00] fruit based focus, I think. Uh, 

Daniel: okay. What, what's your nuttiest health, uh, obsession?

I'm, I'm a sauna, cold plunge, uh, person now for the last like, year or so. So, 

Tony: yeah. That's good. Um, nothing super nutty. I mean, like, I. Don't think I'm ready and, you know, don't think I could sustainably be vegan or vegetarian for years at a time, but I try to do breakfast that way every day. So, um, you know, trying not deep meat for breakfast is, is one of the things that, you know, I, I try to do.

That's, you know, more sustainable than going full in on it. 

Daniel: I love it. Uh, my final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? 

Tony: Someone who inspires me. Um. I really like look slightly outside of advertising, but in the creative space for people who kind of share similar mindsets.

And Jimmy, ive, the, the music producer is somebody who, um, I admire a whole [00:43:00] ton. I think like his ability to, um, put disparate things together to make, you know, two different genres or what have you, and, you know, take this singer and put 'em on this track. Um. Is a skill that is kind of akin to what we do is, is, you know, it's a creative product and it's seeing, you know, having a vision for how things can be, but also being kind of open at all times and being that seeing Eye in the world.

So I love, uh, Jimmy, ive, and that whole, uh, documentary series that they did on HBO with him and, uh, Dr. Dre, like that kind of stuff is, is um, you know, hits home for me. 

Daniel: I love it. Uh, before we go, you wanna direct, uh, the, the, the viewers, the listeners to, uh, is it, would you want them to go to show me organics?

You want 'em to go to the individual products? Any upcoming campaigns? You, you, you tell me. 

Tony: Cool. Yeah. Show me. organics.com is, is the holding company homepage and you can navigate to all the individual brands. From there, you can also see some of the [00:44:00] work we've done, um, most recently with Bandits and Friends on a, an opioid campaign where we sort of.

Uh, took our founders who came from pharmacies and, uh, you know, put the, our products in their hands and said, you know, we're comfortable, you know, consuming our products. How about the opioid makers? Are the opioid makers, you know, comfortable taking their own products and sort of issued a challenge to big pharma on that.

Um, 

Daniel: so I, I assume big pharma did not answer. 

Tony: Yeah, no. Uh. The, uh, the post mysteriously disappeared from LinkedIn and, uh, yeah, we, we did not get a formal response, but, um, we definitely made some waves and, um, got, got some good, uh, everyone in in the market kind of seems to have seen it and, and you know, we get some good feedback on it, so.

Uh, if 

Daniel: either of us go missing, we'll, uh, we'll know who it is. 

Tony: That's right. And, and, uh, if you're in Missouri, in St. Louis, Kansas City, uh, anywhere, uh, check out Blue Sage. Uh, that's our dispensary and you can [00:45:00] find all our products there. But you know, our products are in just about all the dispensaries as well.

Daniel: Awesome. Well, I appreciate you joining. This was awesome. And, uh, yeah, we'll be excited to see, uh, outside of the regulations what you guys do next. 

Tony: Thank you. Appreciate you having me.