(Final Video) Jeff Jenkins, Change is Exciting!

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Daniel: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to podcast. I am Daniel Wiener, your host. Your sponsor, your everything. You should talk to pairs, brands and marketers for free with vetted agencies because finding and great agencies is a pain in the ass. Uh, super excited to be [00:01:00] joined today by, I would, I would say a local Atlanta legend.

Uh, a little a, a little bit of a legend outside of Atlanta as well, but very well known marketer in Atlanta. Uh, Jeff Jenkins. Thank you for joining. How are you? 

Jeff Jenkins: Thanks for having me today. Uh, I'm in a fantastic mood and ready to roll. 

Daniel: Love it. This is great. We'll, we'll dive right into my favorite question.

Uh, what is the most unpopular opinion you have in the, uh, the marketing sphere these days? 

Jeff Jenkins: Coming in hot here, Daniel, to start us off with, um, you know, I think, um, my, my, my most unpopular take, uh, is that everyone's faking it. Um, everyone in the marketing community I think suffers from a little bit of the imposter syndrome.

Um, I think everyone, you know, is really the, the world is changing faster than it ever has, and so I think everyone wants to feel like they're on top of it all. Um, and they're understanding all the change that's happening with ai, with new technology. No one person can keep up with everything. And so I think it is a constant, uh, a little bit of, Hey, I, I've gotta sort of fake it till I make [00:02:00] it right at all levels.

From being a manager all the way up to the C-suite, people are having to sort of act like they know everything. Um, because that's what's expected from boards, from leadership, is for everyone to be on top of everything. And it's great because it makes you constantly learning and curious. But it's also, I think, sometimes gives the broader community a, a false sense of we know everything that's going on.

I think you look up to leaders and there's people I look up with and I, I'll talk to them behind the scenes and they'll say, you know, I don't know what's, yeah, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing on this topic. Um, but their job is to lead and show, show leadership, right? And same thing with me. There's not everything that, I don't know everything.

My job is to find great people to work with me and work for me and work across the aisle in different, uh, functions that can make us all better as a company. But I think. You know, no one knows what at all, but you have to have the humility to understand and admit you don't, you don't know it all. Um, but I think as a, as, as a community, it's, there's a a lot of pressure to know it all.

Daniel: Yeah, I would say, uh, I talk about this frequently on this podcast and beyond the CMO role is insane [00:03:00] these days. I mean, it's, uh, 57 different jobs and, uh, you know, you, you are expected to know them all. And, uh, I feel for the, uh, the plight of the CMO and I feel like it reflects a lot back to, to leadership of understanding that it's.

Really difficult for one person to have expert level understanding of literally every single thing, but they're hiring people for, uh, the ability to hire other great people to your point, and build out a great team of experts. Yeah. I see it on the agency side too, just 'cause you mentioned AI of, uh, so many agencies saying, you know, we're, we're AI experts.

I'm like, is anybody in ai? Is any Yeah, is is anyone? Yeah. Like, are we, can, can you say that, uh, today so we, we can talk more about that, uh, in a bit. I want to hear a bit about your career journey up until this point. Um, you've had lots of food experience. We've got retail, taco Bell, K-F-C-C-K-E, whole Foods.

We've got nasa, which is, yeah. I think a huge flex just to say, Hey, I worked for nasa and then everybody I presume ask if you're an astronaut. Uh, and you just wrapped up a six year stint over at, uh, Carter. So I'd love to hear a little bit [00:04:00] about the journey that got you here, and then my biggest question about all of it, what have you seen in terms of like consumer behavior and how it evolves over, uh, you know, the entirety of your career so far?

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, no, it's, it's a great question. So yeah, my career, my whole thing has always been I wanna move to a bunch of different industries and never be. Sort of pigeonholed into one industry. You know, I think marketing is marketing as you move across the industries. It's all about understanding consumer behavior and applying your understanding of consumer behavior to whatever category you're in.

You know, my first job outta college was as a very, you know, very minor role. But I, I went to work at MTV, um, in the entertainment industry, and I got to work, uh, way under, but under, um, the original creative director of MTV. Um, and, you know. I invented the, I want my MTV invented, the moonman, all the things.

And you know, it just gave me an insight of, I always wanna be a challenger brand. I always wanna be someone who's innovating and pushing, pushing forward and being relevant to culture. And that sort of was instilled in me very early. To your [00:05:00] point, I did work for nasa. I always say and caveat it with it, I was the dumbest person there.

Um, still a 

Daniel: flex. Still a flex Being, being the T person at NASA still. 

Jeff Jenkins: Um, but it is, you know, I've never been around a collection of smarter people in my entire life. I find myself very lucky. I worked for, um, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which is NASA's facility that is over unmanned robotic exploration of space.

It's a mouthful, but, um, you get used to saying it, and it's the, um, facility that gave us the Mars rovers, the little rovers that drove around on Mars and learned about that. All of the, uh, satellites at Jupiter and some of the moons, it's there is just an inspiration of. Working for an organization that is all about exploration and what is the best of humankind.

Um, but it was also working for the government, which is its own unique characteristic. Sure. Um, and then to your point, I went, I've got in the food world with Taco Bell. Love, love food. It's such a great category. It's fun, it's fast, it's energetic, that it is. I always say [00:06:00] like the food world is dependent on marketing more than most other industries.

So how do you get to turn, get someone to turn left versus turn right. Um, and on a given day when they're hungry. Um, so it's a fun category and I was at Yum for a decade building out both digital and. Marketing stuff and enjoyed it. Working with lots of agencies across digital agencies, media agencies, marketing agencies, experiential agencies, music agencies, sports agencies.

How do you find all the right partners? Um, and then to your point, got a chance to go to grocery. Grocery was a unique beast, um, at Whole Foods. Uh, and then heard the sirens call of going back to restaurants with Carl Jr. And Hardee's. I love food more than, uh, you know, I became a foodie over time. And then six years at Carter's, right.

Kids' clothing. Um, one of the things that people don't know about Carter's is how great the data is and how, how, uh, what a machine understanding the consumer is and how, how high of a loyalty penetration it was just such a great opportunity and it's a brand. It's been around for 160 years. They own Oshkosh, which has been around [00:07:00] for 140.

Um, and they're beloved brands for multi-generations. But it's, uh, an organization, a company where you always have to be reinvent, reinventing yourself for the next generation of parents. And that's just a, I I love that challenge of how do you keep innovating? 

Daniel: Yeah. I'm, I'm interested around the consumer stuff because I, I always, uh, especially in food and retail, pre COVID, post COVID.

What did, what did you see, you know, what do you see now in terms of how people shop and how people, uh, you know, eat and consume food and third party delivery and all of that sort of stuff? Yeah. But you know, I'll just lump it in with retail in general with Carter's. Yeah. Online especially. 

Jeff Jenkins: What I would say is the biggest change for me is the pace of change.

One of the things I can say is that it's, the pace of change Has never been faster today than at any point in human history. And the only thing I can guarantee you is the pace of change in the future will be faster. Um, and so if you think about, you know, for, let's call it, gosh, 50 years TV and consumer marketing through the [00:08:00] television was the way to reach consumers.

And the biggest innovation was tv. Then you got to whatever it would be, the late nineties, early two thousands, the internet boom, consumer's behavior shifted to online. And how do you, how does that change consumer behavior? Well then if you think since 2000 you've had the internet, boom, you've had the social media boom, you've had the Uberfication of America, of everything is available at the press of a button.

Now you've entered the TikTok generation, uh, with sort of the creators and everyone being a media channel. Celebrities are now longer, no longer, you know, being asked to come be a brand. They are a brand. They're creating their own media channels. And then, you know, AI is the next wave of that. Think about that.

That's the last 10 years. We were 50 years of television. And so I think what's happening is, is consumer behavior is changing ever so quickly to adapt to the new channels, mediums, behaviors that technology is driving, but underneath it, all the consumer wants and needs aren't changing that much. Cons, consumers still think want things that are better.

Easier [00:09:00] and cheaper. And they want great experiences. They want brands that they know and trust, and they wanna build relationships. Those things never change. The how is changing, but the why doesn't change. 

Daniel: That's fair. You still bullish on linear tv? Uh, in general, you know, without, without naming it for a particular reason?

Jeff Jenkins: Well, I, I think, um, linear tv, I, I will tell you, having two teenagers who I don't think have ever watched linear tv. I, I think it is, you know, it's adapting and, um, having to figure out how, where in the continuum space for a certain audience it still works. But I think as I look forward into where, where linear TV will be in a few years, I have, you know, two kids who, for the most of everything, YouTube is their tv.

Like they, they're children of their YouTube generation who grew up watching short form videos. They don't have social media yet, so I, I can sort of push that off to the side. 

Daniel: Good. Nor nor nor should they, 

Jeff Jenkins: but, uh, but you know, look, they're, they're short form [00:10:00] videos. Like they are interested in very niche topics that they go deep in.

They're not watching. The only thing they watch on linear TV is sports, which I am very bullish on. Right? Yeah. Sports, sports are the, the unifier of culture. I agree. But other than that, they're, they're really the, the next generation will be the short form of generation. 

Daniel: Yeah, I'm 39, so in that weird middle ground, uh, I find everything I know, uh, everything I learn and everything I discover from TikTok, I'm super honest about it.

I'm wildly addicted to trying to, trying to knock that off. But, uh, yeah, like as a discovery channel, it's insane. I, I trust, uh, TikTok creators more than, you know, uh, a traditional media, which is just a bizarre shift I even see in myself. So, 

Jeff Jenkins: yeah, I, I'm a, I, I will say the two places I learned about everything are TikTok and Reddit.

Daniel: Yeah, Reddit. I, I gotta figure Reddit out. I find Reddit overwhelming, but, uh, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of good stuff, a lot of weird stuff on Reddit, but yeah. Yeah, it 

Jeff Jenkins: is. It could be a dark, a big wormhole to go down, but if you want to figure out how to fix something, YouTube, TikTok, Reddit will [00:11:00] get you 90, 99% of the way there.

Daniel: I agree. Uh, I'm curious if you had to look in the camera and give A-A-P-S-A of sorts to other, uh, folks in your seat, you know, VP CMO, marketing leaders in general, what's your best piece of advice for somebody, I don't know, call, call it struggling now or figuring out how to, uh, finish the year strong and start 2026 off on the right foot.

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, I mean, I, what I, someone told me this piece of advice, um, a couple years ago, which is when you get to the CMO seat or any, any C level seat, any higher level seat, there are very few people who've been in that seat. And finding your peer set group where you can share and get feedback and change exchange ideas is the most valuable thing you can do.

And I know we all have busy lies, particularly when you get to the, the, the C level and it's go, go, go. But finding and investing and building that group, whether it's a text group or whether it's a call, you do it once a month or just understanding it's a lonely place to be when you're in that seat [00:12:00] because no one's gonna get, tell you're doing a good job because there's only one person above you, the CEO.

Um, so how do you find that peer set group who's experiencing that same thing you are, where you can exchange ideas freely. Confidentially and really allow for yourself to be better. You've always gonna be learning, right? No matter what job you are at, whether you're an entry-level employee, whether you're a manager, whether you're a director, whether you're a vp, or whether you're the in the C-level, you must always be learning, and you just need to tap into that group around you who've shared the experience to be able to understand what are the challenges that you may not have experienced yet in that seat.

Daniel: Yeah, no, I think it's great advice. Um, I'm curious, folks, with your title, I find, and I hear in general, uh, are getting hit up, I don't know, 75,000 times per day via email, text, everything. Uh, I find in general, once there's a C or a V in front of your name. You know, uh, agencies, vendors, everybody thinks you're just sitting at your desk with a pile of cash.

Just, you know, do doling things out. Uh, since I work with agencies and, you know, I'll just use Carter's as an [00:13:00] example, or virtually any brand you've mentioned everybody wants to work with a brand like that. I'm curious, what is your PSA to agencies out there? What would you tell them? And the, the biggest question.

Which, you know, the, the honest answer most give is no. But when you're not in market for something, do you have time to take general calls with folks? 

Jeff Jenkins: You know, it is a tough one. I, I was, uh, someone that used to work for me, uh, Jenna Bromberg is now the CMO over at Papa John's. And as she was, uh, going to that job and we were doing a sort of goodbye lunch, I said.

Enjoy the first three months of the job 'cause no one will have your email address yet on the systems that are out there where everyone, you know, finds contact information and it will be the quietest period of your stent as the CMO or as a vp because no one knows you are, no one, no one knows your contact information yet.

And so enjoy that. Um, I actually think the PSAI have to agencies is gonna be counter to your advice, right? The no, which is. Once I'm in the hunt [00:14:00] for a new partner or um, agency, I go to those that I know and trust immediately. Right? And so I think for me it's about building relationships with brands outside of that window of, Hey, we're in consideration so that you are in the consideration.

Um, we all know that yes, uh, partners like you who help us connect with brands, but we usually come to you with, Hey, we, we've heard of this, this, and that. We've heard of this brand. We know this person. Can you help us refine a group that looks like this? Um, you know, I can't take every call. Um, time is of the essence and it's packed.

My, my calendars packed. CMOs calendars are packed, but I think. It's, we have to know what's out there. We have to be meeting the people. We have to know what's going on. You know, when I get into an RFP or, or a situation where we're looking for a partner, it's all about who do we know? Who, who have we heard about?

Who have our friends worked with, um, and how do we meet them? Right? Uh, not cold, not in a cold, sterile environment. Um, where we're going through something really formal with whether it, you know, be a full process or whether it be something. [00:15:00] It's about those relationships. And I, and I think. Whether it's, you know, looking for your next job or whether it's looking for an agency, if you're not always building your network of great talent.

Same thing with hiring. If I'm hiring someone, I, I want to know 10 great people when a job opens up that I can think of to give the recruiter or give them, say, these are the types of people I want. These are the types of agencies I want to meet. You can't do it all the time. You can't do it with every agency.

But I think build the relationships with those brands in authentic ways before they need you. So that when the call comes in, you're already top of mind. 

Daniel: Yeah, I think it's incredible advice, and it's something I think so many agencies miss. They, they do it too late, you know, not to, uh, pat myself on the back.

I'm always a fan of, you know, tooting my own horn. But, you know, uh, I think people turn their nose to like, oh, like they're only directors, you know, or, uh, something like that. And I'll remind them. I'm like, all of the directors of today, or aiming. Most of them, at least not all aiming to be the next VPs and the next CMOs.

And you know, I think a lot of people just think shortsighted in the agency space, [00:16:00] unfortunately. Um, but yeah, to your point, you've gotta build those relationships out significantly, uh, before you are in market for whatever it is you are looking for. I find. 

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, I, I've been very blessed on my front of my career that, uh, as I grew up, to your point at the director level and some of those levels where.

You know, agencies were very nice to me. Um, as I, as I grew up and we did, I built great relationships with them and they invested in those relationships. So I know there's probably a, the, the experience, those that have the experience that I don't. But I do think, you know, I, I remember there's a partner that I worked with as a director when I was at Taco Bell.

Um, I've used that partner four times now over the course of, uh, 15 years. Right. I was just a look, you know, a director at the time, I was not the, the, the. High notch on the, on the top totem pole. But it was one of those things where over time we built a relationship. And I will go back to that. Well, the relationship that I know works, I know they, the talent is there and we've worked together three and four times.

Um, because the trust is there, which is the most key ingredient in any relationship agency or [00:17:00] otherwise, is do you have the trust between the team? And it takes time to, to build that trust. And if someone's gonna trust me when I'm. Director versus being the most important person in the room at the CMO or whatever it might be.

That goes a long way to your point as you climb the ranks. 

Daniel: Yeah. No, I totally agree. Um, I'm curious, I've seen a big shift, especially since COVID of brands moving towards smaller, independent agencies specialized in say, one to two services. Mm-hmm. Um, in general, what do you think of that, but how did you handle kind of your agency ecosystem at, uh, Carter's?

Was it, you know, more of an a OR type scenario? You had multiple, uh, agencies in the mix. 

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, I, I, I think the world is becoming more specialized in general, and, you know, it is hard to amass the right amount of talent to serve every niche. Out there, whether it be sports, whether it be music, whether it be partnerships, whether it be digital.

I think it becomes really hard to be an expert in everything. And so I think what, what you're seeing is the shift, particularly as technology is moving [00:18:00] faster than ever is, you know. I think there's this huge gap right now, and I'm sure you could tell me five people that are doing this well. So I may want a phone call after this, which is there, there, there is a need for an agency that helps bring AI into an organization in a unified way, right?

No one has mastered, like everyone's saying, they're great at ai, as you said earlier, but I don't think anyone's mastered it. And there's a huge, you know, gap in the market of how do I find someone who's really an agency that's really good at helping me, AI I, my organization and my business. That's a huge, that's not something who's been a legacy creative agency, may not necessarily have the, the talent for now.

They may go out and get the talent, but it's gonna take them a while. Um, so I think as the world becomes more niche and more focused, you're gonna have to find these partners. You know, at Carter's we had a, a little bit of a mixed model, right? It was, I think if you go in the model where you're sort of best of breed for everything and have too many partners.

You know, are all the partners working together? It's like, I've gotta make sure everyone's working well together versus one piece. At least I [00:19:00] have sort of a view and sort of easier management over a whole sort of team. So for us it was a bit of a hybrid model. It was, there's certain niches where we did not have the experience and we wanted to bring in partners who were really fantastic.

And then there was other places where it's like, okay, let's have more of a holistic view over. These pieces, but it was always evolving. Right? Um, do you need a full a OR? Do you need, uh, project based help? Do you need expertise in, you know, building the digital ecosystem out for some period of time? And then do we wanna bring part of that in-house over time?

Um, so I think for me, the hybrid models, I think what has always worked for me is finding the great partners who have breadth and scale, particularly in areas like media and creative. But then as you get into more of the niche places like sports, like. You know, music partnerships like, um, digital, you may need some specialization there that something that has just such scale may not have the, the depth of knowledge in certain areas.

Daniel: Sure. Yeah. It's interesting on ai, uh, I have a decent amount of conversations around AI pertaining to, I would say, like creative, uh, [00:20:00] testing and iteration. How can we make, you know, 7 million different versions of something to test it out? If I'm being totally candid and honest, I don't know if I'm the right guy for the AI conversation yet, because what I like to think is my somewhat superpower is sussing out bullshit.

Everything around ai, truthfully. Sounds a little bsy at present, I would say, because it is so new. So like, I'm having a harder time. I don't know, being a, uh, you know, a, a voice of reason on that front to say who, who is doing that well. So if, if you want to have a conversation around that, I'd say gimme, gimme a couple months to, uh, to, to figure it out myself.

Jeff Jenkins: Great. I, I love the honesty. 

Daniel: It's hard, right? 'cause it, that's why, again, if somebody says, oh, we're, you know, the, the foremost thinkers of AI in the field, I'm like. Uh, are you like, what, what, who gave you that, uh, delineation and, and award? So, uh, yeah. Uh, some, something. Definitely. I mean, it's, it really hasn't been as big of a, I don't know, a, a talking point in my [00:21:00] conversations unless it's around production, truthfully.

Yeah. Uh, I'm curious, can you think of a great agency experience you've had in the past? And if so, what made it so great? 

Jeff Jenkins: Um, you know, I think, um. The biggest, the biggest great agency experience I've had, um, was, uh, we had a partner, uh, create a partner who, um, was introduced to me by a mutual friend. It was not, we weren't necessarily into the hunt, and this team was a relatively, you know, new team, new to us, and they walked in and to a, what I would say is a, just a, a meet and greet to your point.

Like, let's get to know each other before I need something. Um, and they had done their homework on the brand, um, and they came in and showed us what we needed without us knowing what we needed. Now, it wasn't the, they didn't nail a campaign and like, it wasn't a pitch. It was like, Hey, here are the things.

And it was someone who challenged us [00:22:00] out of the gate to think about, in a respectful way, about how to think about the brand going forward. So it really was one where all of a sudden where someone walks into the room. And is direct out of the gate challenges. You has a plethora of ideas, some of which will work and some of which won't work.

I, I, I, I've seen that happen, but all of a sudden you're sitting there going like, wow, we connect on a human level. I don't need what you're selling right now. But I want you on my team. I want you on my team, and I will find a reason to bring you into the fold because I can see my, my whole will be greater if you're part of it.

Um, and so that partnership ended up, you know, I think we went from zero to live on air in 65 days with no plans to actually be on air. Um, it was one of those where I was like, okay, this, this is the, and we sort of met a week later and suddenly there was an idea and we're like, that's, I mean, they, they took one [00:23:00] conversation with us.

And built out a campaign that was game changing in the, and then it went live in production, or it went live in on air 65 days later from the first meeting to then, and it was not a meeting like, Hey, we need, we need an agency right now. It was just one of those experiences where, okay, I see how we're gonna be greater because this partnership.

Daniel: That's amazing. You said something I'm, I'm curious about, I'll throw you a curve ball. 'cause I hear it from a lot of CMOs and VPs. Don't worry, it's nothing too crazy. Uh, you mentioned that they, they pushed you and you know, CMOs I hear often, uh, especially around creative, one of the asks I get, and you know, that gets translated to an agency that they'll say directly is we want to be pushed.

I find more times than not an agency will then come back, you know, in tissue session or pitch in some capacity and they'll, you know, generally show more than one concept or idea or something, and they'll go, here's the, we're pushing you. And the brand will go, whoa. Like, well, not that far and stuff. I'm curious as you, you know, think about that in the lens of creative, [00:24:00] uh.

And risk taking just in general. Like, are you the, you know, let's kind of swing for the fences without, or is it, you know, how do you think about that in terms of, oh shit, like my job's on the line as well if we swing too far. Like, I'm just curious, since you've worked at some bigger brands that have a lot of eyeballs on them, how do you think about that in terms of, you know, pushing the, uh, creative latitude of your partners?

Jeff Jenkins: So if you were to talk to any agency that I've worked with. Or if you were to talk to any agency who's been part of an RFP or pitch process with me, um, my brief to an agency is very simple. I want you to scare the crap outta me, and I want you to do it in one of two ways. The first way is you've got to give me an idea that no one else has ever thought of that pushes the brand into a new space.

That makes me scared. Can our brand go into that space? The second way you can scare the crap outta me is give me an idea. So good. That if we don't do it right now, someone else is gonna come up with an analog for their category and do it before we [00:25:00] do it. And we all know first mover advantage in creative in brand.

So those are the ways I think about it. The guardrails I always put on it because I've seen it go where you're saying, which is I want you to push the brand into a place that makes me uncomfortable, but is not unnatural for the brand. So I think when you start to push the brand in a place that you're like, okay, that makes that, that makes.

No sense for, you know, name, brand X, that makes no sense for Nike to do that. That's where, you know, scaring the crap outta me doesn't make sense. But if you say, Hey, push us to a place where the brand's uncomfortable, but it's not unnatural to the brand. Those are the guardrails. But I'm with you. I think you've got to take in this attention based economy where brands are not the only creators of content anymore.

If you are not stopping the scroll. Immediately with your content in the first four seconds. Good luck. Right? And how do you take those big swings to stand out, to be relevant, easy, and distinct, which is red marketing, which is, uh, I learned at Yum from Greg Creed of like, how do you stand out, be relevant, [00:26:00] easy, and distinct in your marketing so that someone stops scrolling and starts engaging with you.

Daniel: Yeah, I think the exciting part about that in 2025 and beyond is that is not necessarily as I think it was, you know, 10 years ago associated with a huge budget. There are certain things that brands are able to do with things like TikTok and creators on shoestring budgets, or for free, if I'm being honest, uh, to accomplish that more than, you know, multimillion dollar production.

So I think an exciting time on the creative front. 

Jeff Jenkins: Uh, the, the, the best creative idea I've ever executed cost me $25,000. It was in 2015, it went on to win Cannes Lions. Um, but it was about the size of the idea, not the size of the budget. And agency brand bought us, 

Daniel: it was, which brand 

Jeff Jenkins: it was. I was, when I was with Taco Bell and we were launching, uh, a mobile ordering platform and, you know, the partner came to us with a phenomenal idea.

It was $25,000 worth of production. And, you know, I think we got the. Back then in 2015, 2 billion PR impressions. We were on TMZ. We were in all these places just because of the nature of the idea of. [00:27:00] Basically they, we erased Taco Bell from the internet, took down the, you know, blacked out Twitter, blacked out Instagram blacked out the website, and the only place you could, taco Bell was in the app.

So it directed all the traffic and it just, it was like this like aha moment and the, the budget was around, you know, some assets to make sure that everything looked, you know, it was all black, right? It was not like this huge, Hey, we're gonna go and do this. And it was, it drove a huge, incredible response.

I'm always about what's the size of the idea, if the idea's great. We'll make it work regardless of the budget. Great ideas. Find budget. Um, I will say that time and time again, if the idea is something that is showstopping, you will find the idea the way into the budget. 

Daniel: Yeah. I, uh, I find that the same.

That's why when, when agencies sometimes say, oh, nervous about the budget, I say, well, you're, you're allowed to convince them as well. You know, like some magically money gets found for good ideas. So, uh, I'm curious. Fill me in on a bad agency experience. You told me before you had a really bad one, so I'm particularly excited about this one.

Jeff Jenkins: You know, I, I wouldn't say it's, [00:28:00] I would say the bad agency experience even. Look, we all have had good and bad experiences. Um, I would put this one, this one on me, which is I had an experience where I didn't trust my gut and I would say I did the, the worst thing you can do, which is I fell in, I pitch love.

I loved a pitch. Um, it was the most complete, unbelievable pitch I've ever seen in my career. From all the way up. It was unbelievable. I think it had six concepts in the pitch, and all six went to air internationally. It was that good. Wow. But for me, what I forgot about, or what I, what I wish I would've remembered was, I've gotta trust the relationship more than the idea.

Right? And I don't mean this because ideas are hard, 

Daniel: but you've been, you've been reading my LinkedIn content, Jeff. I, I, I, I love this. 

Jeff Jenkins: But, but look, anyone can hit on a great idea. Occasionally. Um, and sometimes that's great, but what matters is what's the working relationship, what's that going to look like?

Do you think [00:29:00] it's a relationship that you can mine lots of great ideas over the next five years together versus, hey, just because someone brings in a great idea doesn't mean they're the right brand for you, even though that that idea may be great and it may be the, the idea that you should do, which makes it difficult sometimes in the process when you see this idea and, and so I would say.

My, my bad experience was I fell, not fell, that's the wrong word. Um, I saw, I, I lost track of what I've always said, which is like, let's build, choose the right partner, not the right idea. Um, and so I think that's probably one bad experience. That I, that I had over time that really was like, oh, I really, I made the mistake, right?

I said, you know, I, I fell for the, the pitch, not the, the, the agency and not the relationships. And so I think over time that that what it ended up not being the right fit right for them and for us. Um, and so I think that was one where I would say. Bad experience because I, you know, I did the thing you shouldn't do, which is fall in love with an idea.

Right? And by the way, they were fantastic. They were so good. I mean, hats off to that, [00:30:00] that team, that created team, they nailed every single element of every single thing. And it was the greatest single pitch I've ever seen in my life. And I, I will tip my hat to them about that time and time. 

Daniel: That's crazy.

Yeah. I'm getting to sit in on, uh, a lot more pitches these days and I'm never telling, you know, the marketing team who, uh, to pick of course. But often I'm asked like, oh, what'd you think? And I have to remind them of that often of like, the pitch is one moment in time, you know, there was the process that led up to this and there's.

10 other data points. Like if you take out the pitch, what do you think? You know, of course the pitch matters and stuff like that. But yeah, to your point, it's uh, you know, a two or three hour meeting and there's, uh, 50 million other things that, uh, will happen after the, uh, after the pitch, uh, as well. So you have to get there with that agency.

It is a unique world we are all in where if you see an idea you like and then you want to execute that with somebody else. Do you have an opinion of that? That's a very, uh, a very tumultuous, uh, debate on LinkedIn these days. 

Jeff Jenkins: Oh, it, it is. It is tricky. Right. And I think that's the hardest. Pieces when you see great work in a [00:31:00] process and it might not be the right partner.

And I think you have to find your way of either, you know, I, I, I've, I'm not generally someone who, a, if we're gonna do a pitch, you're paying them to do the pitch and do the work. 'cause Yeah, I, I don't want that, that for me is a, is a no go of like, ask people to do work for free. It's just, it's not how we need to operate.

Um, for, for me, a lot of that process, I, you know, I've gone away from like more of the traditional pitches over time. Like where it's like, oh, let's bring in six people and have them do the full dog and pony show. For me, particularly after I learned from that bad experience, it's like, for me, I want the chemistry session.

I don't necessarily, I, I wanna know that you have the creative talent to get it done, but for me it's about more, I focus more on the chemistry sessions, on that relationship building, spending time, going to dinner, breaking bread, all those things with partners. And then seeing what they have in the work.

'cause ultimately we all know it's about, it is about the talent, it's about the people. Um, and so who do you know, who, what are the references? Um, can we work with those folks? But then when you do see some good ideas, it's, it's tricky. Like there's no right [00:32:00] answer, right? Whether it's paying the team to do the work and then, you know, and, and saying, Hey, we want you to do this one project before we choose someone.

It, it's, I've seen it work both ways where. It's a disaster 'cause you just choose that partner 'cause they've got the great work, or hey, we're gonna pay you for this one-off thing. Or how do you negotiate that? And the price can fluctuate knowing that I'm, I've been chosen as the agency, or I'm not chosen the agency.

Um, or hey, is there something here in a nugget that we learned forward and we, we go off in another direction creatively. 

Daniel: Yeah, no, I, uh, I agree there's not, there's not a perfect answer to that, although some, some on LinkedIn would say that there is, uh, I'm curious, what are you excited about the most? What are you most bullish on in the marketing space at the moment?

I'll, I'll say outside of ai since we, uh, since we got that one outta the way. 

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, no, we got that one outta the way. You know, I, I just think I am always bullish on change, right? Things are always changing. That's what, you know, that's what gets me outta bed in the morning, is that there's change, right?

There's going to be change. You have to keep learning. Um, and I think there is a, particularly as a dad of a 13 and a [00:33:00] 14-year-old, and I'm gonna give him 13, even though he is seven days short or a week short of, uh, whatever he is, he keeps saying he's 13. I'm like, you're not quite 13 yet. 

Daniel: That's fair. 

Jeff Jenkins: Uh, but I'm, I'm, I'm bullish on the amount of change that's happening because I watch how my kids interact with the world around them.

And, you know, when my kids were 18 month old, 18 months old, they could operate an iPad that was laying around. They, they knew how to swipe, like they, the the intuition around kids and how to interact with technology. Is something I'm always looking at my kids, what are you doing? How you're interacting.

And you know, they're always three steps ahead of the, the brands, the agencies, the partners, because they're always in, you know, they watch the creators, they watch all the the, so how do you keep up? And so I get excited about the amount of change. Like that's what gets me really excited about the amount of change and the openness of brands and companies and agencies to change quickly to pivot, right?

I think for so many years it was like, here's our plan, here's our brand plan. We're gonna run this for the year. Now it's like, Hey, we know that the brand, the consumer's changing so [00:34:00] quickly, how do we keep up? And so I think for me, the amount of change and the quick pace of change and the openness of brands and companies to react to it is wild.

I mean, there's, there's decisions that are being made really quickly now that would've taken a, you know, a legal team and, and all these teams. But, you know, I remember when I was first coming up and social was a big thing, right? And everyone wanted to run every tweet through the legal team. Well, we all know that social works way too fast to go through a th 13 day, you know, review through all the marketing team, then go to the legal team.

And so I think that pace of changes is now seconds, right? If, if you are, you know, Oreo and it's the whatever, it's you, whatever, it's, you can't dunk in the dark when the Super Bowl lights go out. They didn't go through, you know, they had a great process in place. They were ready for that amount of change.

Um, and so I think that amount of change is what gets me excited because that means you're no day's the same. Uh, and that's where people get the energy from, or I, at least I do. 

Daniel: And build out a team you trust to make those tweets, uh, on, on behalf of [00:35:00] your, your ginormous brand. I would say it's funny. Uh, the, the last question I asked before going into a couple fun ones is what stresses you out, uh, about marketing?

And generally when I ask that question, everybody answers what you just said makes you excited, the amount of rapid change going on and just the, the amount of stuff they have to figure out, uh, collectively. So I'm curious, since that excites you, what stresses you out? 

Jeff Jenkins: Uh, what stresses me out is all the, all the changes great, but what it presents is.

The competition for consumer's attention has never been more competitive, right? So it used to be that, oh yeah, I'm competing against other brands in my category for attention, right? I'm, oh, I'm in the food category, I'm at Taco Bell. I've gotta compete against McDonald's and Burger King and Popeye's and Chick-fil-A for attention.

Now you're competing against attention from TikTok and you're competing against attention from, you know, Mr. Beast, right there. Is this always on? How do I. To capture someone's attention and stay top of mind. [00:36:00] Um, and while that's part of the change, it is something for, particularly for brands where you're asking someone to turn left or right into a restaurant or into a retailer, you've gotta be top of mind.

And that is a, a, an a relentless chore. And so I think the thing that keeps me up is how do you stay top of mind and relevant. But also, how do you not burn your team and your, uh, brand out doing it? Because you can always be on, right? It's always on. Like it's, it doesn't stop. It's not like TV's on from, you know, whatever it was prime time from, from seven to 10 o'clock at night.

It's 24 hours a day. And so how do you, how do you manage and build a team that is able to respond without putting that team in a place where they're exhausted and they don't want that? So I think that that sort of, the, the people tension is what keeps me up at night is how do we stay relevant? How do we.

W you know, create content at the speed of culture, but how do we keep that team in a great place where they're inspired, they're not burned out, and they're really enjoying what they're doing. 

Daniel: I interviewed, uh, Angela [00:37:00] Johnson, CIO at Edible last week, and she had a quote that I, uh, I, you know, uh, 1000000% agree with, but I don't hear often 'cause people like to not, uh, tell the truth as much.

And she said B plus creative, uh, with speed, uh, with lightning speed at scale over a plus creative was, you know, uh, something she would take all day, every day. So, I speed. Speed is the biggest thing I hear every day from everybody. 

Jeff Jenkins: Yeah, the world's moving so fast. You gotta keep up. I, I don't disagree with speed is a, speed is a competitive advantage in today's game.

Daniel: Yeah. We'll finish with a couple fun ones. What was your very first job? 

Jeff Jenkins: Um, I would say, I'll give you a two, right, because I had, I started my own, I was a tennis player growing up, uh, a fairly decent one. And I started my own racket stringing business at like 13 Jeff Stringing business. Very original name, clearly.

Clearly the future marketer. 

Daniel: I was gonna say a brand builder from the beginning. 

Jeff Jenkins: Uh, so that was my first, uh, you know, informal job. My first ever job. I worked retail, I worked when I was 15, 16 at [00:38:00] Britches. Not your, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Britches. It was sort of a precursor to the Abercrombie and Fitch.

Sort of flannel and corduroy sort of, um, um, 

Daniel: you weren shirtless outside of a mall? Uh, no. I was, no, we're not. No, 

Jeff Jenkins: no. This, I was, I was a, you know, worked the floor and folded clothes and sold clothes, but it was, it was sort of like a, you know, preppy, inspired, sort of outdoorsy, um, sort of Eddie Bauer esque.

Daniel: Okay, 

Jeff Jenkins: retailer and I worked there, uh, during high school, during summers and during, you know, winter breaks, uh, as seasonal help. Um, and it's funny 'cause now here I am back in retail selling, uh, tiny pants on the internet at Carter's for, for six years. 

Daniel: I love it. What would your final meal be? 

Jeff Jenkins: Uh, I would say sushi.

I am a, uh, I did not discover, I grew up in the middle of America, in Tennessee and Nashville. Did not know what sushi was. Never grew up in it. Uh, my, my parents are from the Midwest. They're not sushi people. They're meat and potatoes people. And when I was, gosh, 23, [00:39:00] uh, I, I, I was an actor for a hot second, and so I did this, uh, play that went to Broadway 600 times, um, over a three year period.

And, uh, one of those stops was in San Francisco. In which one of my castmates introduced me to sushi. And I was like, this is weird. I don't want to go at it. And he was like, just trust me and you'll eat what I put in front of you. And it was the, it was at a place called Blowfish Sushi to die for in San Francisco.

Okay. It was the most delicious meal I've ever had. And so I became a, a sushi fanatic from then on, even though I grew up landlocked in Tennessee. Um, and with parents who, who, who weren't sushi fans. 

Daniel: Where do you eat sushi In Atlanta? 

Jeff Jenkins: Oh. Uh, what's your spot? Uh, I love Umi. Um, my daughter loves my, my daughter is a sushi fanatic, even more so than I am.

Uh, there're, I would say eight. Sushi is another place we frequent. Um, uh, we've got a little place called Yoyo around the corner. That's just a simple, easy, local thing. There's a lot. Have 

Daniel: you tried, uh, you tried Mojo yet? 

Jeff Jenkins: I was about to say Mojo is on the list. Uh, I have not tried Mojo, but, um, it is on the hit [00:40:00] list.

There's actually a sort of a merging sushi scene here that's really good. 

Daniel: I would agree. I'm a, I'm a mojo, uh, enthusiast. Uh, I think it's worth the hype in my opinion, so. Oh, alright. I highly recommend giving it a whirl for, uh, an, uh, an insanely priced, uh, sushi meal at some point. Uh, but my final question to you, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both?

Jeff Jenkins: You know, I, I would say, um. Um, two people. One is, uh, a gentleman by the name of Greg Creed. Uh, Greg was, this was the CMO of Taco Bell when I joined, became the CEO of Taco Bell and eventually became the CEO and Chairman of Yum Brands, KFC, taco Bell and Pizza Hut. Uh, he was someone who taught me what it meant, what it means to be a leader, um, and do it the right way.

Um, you know, do it with inspiring others. Uh, and his mantra was, we're gonna judge you 50% on your ability to deliver results. And the other 50% on your coaching tree. And if you were to look at his coaching tree, it is astounding the number of [00:41:00] leaders that came out of Yum underneath him and David Novak, his predecessor as well.

They just set a culture. That I aspire to set everywhere I go where you have fun, you work hard, you get results, and people can grow their careers. And that's someone who, and he's done it by being also a great dad, a great husband, um, and living a, a full, full life. The other person would be my dad, right? I, he is, he's still, to this day, my hero.

Um, and set the tone of how to do things correctly. He was someone who, you know, worked in academics and, you know, wasn't, wasn't in the business world, um, but was all about doing things the right way. And he's sort of instilled in me this sort of ethic, ethical approach to, to business and life and, um, worked as hard.

He came from, uh, nowhere Indiana, uh, town of maybe 2000 people back in the 1940s and fifties. It's now maybe a town of 200 people and he worked his way to getting his PhD and, and doing really well in life. Um, he sort of taught me about what hard work looks like and if you work hard enough and you treat everyone nice and well, it works out [00:42:00] for those, for the, for you in the end.

So those are the two that really set the tone for me. 

Daniel: Still coaching your kids' baseball team. 

Jeff Jenkins: Um, unfortunately or fortunately for him, probably, uh, he, he has progressed to a point in which he has real coaches who actually played baseball. Oh gosh, that's fair. No longer the dad coach. So, um, I'm coaching, uh, a fun basketball league with him, which is fun.

Him and a bunch of friends. Um, there's little coaching when they're 13. Um, I just more, uh, have a, have a blast with them, um, and let them go do their own thing. Um, but no, uh, he has unfortunately progressed beyond my, my ability to, to coach, which is, is good for him because he is got phenomenal coaches that do a great job, um, and teach him more about what it means to be a good human.

Um, as much as it is about being a good baseball player, what I've found is. Your kids will listen to you some of the time. They won't listen to you all the time. But if you have other great adults in their life, they will listen to those folks. And I'm, I'm very lucky that people that coach my son today are great humans above all.

[00:43:00] Um, and are teaching the kids how to be good humans. So, uh, and good baseball players. 

Daniel: Good. We love to hear it. Uh, thank you so much for joining Jeff, truly. And we can't wait to hear where you, uh, where, where your next stop is, uh, here soon. 

Jeff Jenkins: Alright, thanks man. It was great to hang out with you here today.

Daniel: Talk to you soon.