Daniel: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of the You Should Talk to Podcast. I am Daniel Wiener, your host. Your sponsor, your everything you should talk to pairs, brands, and marketers for, and you're already laughing while I do an intro here. You should talk to pairs, brands, and marketers for free, with vetted agencies and or freelancers because finding great agencies is a pain in the ass, which we will talk about today.

Super excited to be joined by. I'm gonna call you a friend now, a colleague. A CMO. I've worked with Anna Ma, did I get the name right? The last name? 

Ana: Yeah. Good job. 

Daniel: We love it. Thank you so much for joining. We are going to dive right in. Uh, what is an unpopular opinion you have in the marketing world, or a hot take of sorts?

Ana: I think an unpopular opinion I'll have is that, um, a lot of marketing teams think that they're building brands and they, they really aren't. They're actually just chasing. Activity. Um, the unfortunate part is that the system really rewards [00:01:00] the quick wins. Drive traffic. Now what are the, what's the traffic this week?

What are conversions this month? And, um, I think they're really losing sight of building the brand over time in favor of these just very quick wins that really aren't rewarded over time, over time. 

Daniel: You are in the most brand over time, sales, overnight, uh, industry in the world. I would billing, I would be willing to wager.

Um, we're gonna talk about that. You have had quite the journey. Uh, I would say lots of food. We have blooming brands. Uh, and you just wrapped up a, what is it, was it six years on the.at melting pot 

Ana: almost? Yep. Yep. About six years. 

Daniel: Talk a little about that journey, and I'm particularly interested, what have you seen, um, around consumer behavior changing the most, you know, being in the industry around COVID pre and post and how people are dining in and out and delivery and all that sort of stuff?

Ana: Yeah. Um, you know, I've really seen a, a really broad spectrum throughout [00:02:00] my marketing career. I worked, uh, I first got my start in consumer, uh, packaged goods, CPGI worked in L'Oreal and at Procter and Gamble. And then I moved from there and I worked in retail at HSN, um, where I freelanced for a couple years.

And then after that, yeah, I went into restaurants and hospitality at, um, bloom and Brands, and then at Melting Pot. And then the other part of that spectrum is also the types of companies I worked at. I worked at international companies, right? L'Oreal's internationally. Um, owned, based in France. I've worked, um, in multinational public companies by Procter and Gamble.

I've worked in companies that went from private to public at Bloom and brands. And then I've worked in family owned, privately held franchise companies like Melting pots. So I've really run the gamut of different corporate structures and different types of businesses. And you know what, what you really realize is that when you work in.

When you're classically [00:03:00] trained at like a L'Oreal or, or definitely a Procter and Gamble, um, the business is all about, it's about, it's all about the brand and it's all about building the brand. It's about the consumer insights, it's about the positioning. Um, it's about the, the, the trust that you're gonna be gaining and the loyalty that you're gonna be gaining from this product.

And so it's always about that long term brand building at HSN and at retail. That was, you know, a very dynamic environment. And you're constantly watching to see if something's on air, you know, is it selling? And if it's not, it could be like plucked right off of air or definitely plucked out of the next segment it's supposed to be on, because you're constantly chasing that, you know, that immediate sale because you've got these, these goals to make.

Um, when you think about, um, the restaurants, it has, um, it is about the. Pulling together. It's not, it's not just a product, right? It's, it's the food, but it's the product and the service. And that [00:04:00] ladders up to an overall experience. And if you're lucky, and if you do your job really well, you're actually also, um, creating emotion and memories because restaurants is so dynamic.

It's human. It's live, and it's happening, happening like at seven o'clock tonight, right? It's immediate. And so a lot of things have to come together to give them what a melting pot, you know, they called the perfect night out. And so what I saw in the restaurant industry, and then I'll talk about the consumer piece, but what I saw in the restaurant industry specifically is that it, it has become an over time.

And because I did spend, you know, so much time in restaurants in that time, it's become a lot more data driven. It's become a lot more, um, segmentation led. Um, it is very much about constant measurement. Um, and everything should be measured, you know, even more. Um, now, and it, to your point before it's incredibly focused around short [00:05:00] term outcomes, um, which is, is a huge pressure point.

Daniel: It's hard. 

Ana: Yeah. And so from a consumer standpoint, I think that, um. We have become much more experience driven, um, which works great for certain brands that already have it. I mean, I remember back, um, in my, in my blooming brands days, um, especially at Outback, we had, we were, we were the, you know, the first kind of casual dining steakhouse, and then other concepts came around like Texas Roadhouse more value, and then Longhorn a little bit more polished.

And all of a sudden Outback was in the middle, which was kind of a no man's land. And Texas Roadhouse had all the entertainment value of the peanuts and the line dancing. And, and then, you know, concepts, you know, became much more entertaining like Dave and Busters and things like that. And so all of a sudden the thing with Outback was like, what are we gonna do?

Right? It's all about entertainment. [00:06:00] Entertainment. What's our shtick gonna be? And so we were trying to come up with, with something. Um, a brand like Melting bot, you know, by definition already was experiential, so they definitely had, um, that advantage. But, um, you definitely seeing people looking for more experiences.

Like I said, um, people after COVID um, became much more value sensitive. They continue to be value sensitive, so you keep seeing that as a recurring, you know, theme, um, with restaurants trying to. You know, be true to themselves, but also offer something, be it an occasion or something that can help a guest feel good about, um, the value that they're getting there.

Daniel: I'm curious not to interrupt just 'cause I work with a ton of food brands. I think what I've seen and what I hear from a lot of folks in your seat is in post COVID, it's also just harder to get people out of their houses, you know? Well, absolutely. Like everybody became. Yes. Permits myself.

A little bit included. I know that I saw data recently, I wanna say it was from, [00:07:00] um, Yelp or Eater, like the most sought after reservation time, which I love this trend as a, as an early eater. And, uh, early Tibet is like five 30 or 5 45, something like that is the most sought after. And restaurants, it used to have like a 10 o'clock reservation have got rid of 'em, and they're, they're all out of there by nine or something like that.

Ana: Yeah. COVID, well that was all driven by COVID, right? Um, people working from home, they were able to go out, you know, maybe a little earlier when things started opening up. Um, and so yeah, the, the d time has shifted earlier also. Um, Uber Eats, DoorDash, GrubHub, all these things, right? So we've, we did some research, um, not that long ago in terms of, you know, understanding competitive sets and people would actually talk about.

Uber Eats and GrubHub as, or, uh, DoorDash, that is what they were doing tonight, right? They weren't like saying, oh, I'm gonna order, you know, from this place. I'm gonna order Uber Eats, I'm gonna order DoorDash. And that has become, you know, a, a part [00:08:00] of their consideration set versus just naming the restaurants.

So, absolutely that's a massive shift. Um, and then the other thing of course is that, uh, people trust. Other people, creators, influencers, now more than the actual brand. So when they go do their research, you know, they wanna hear about it on, on TikTok, on social media, on, you know, whatever, influencer, just to hear about the brand.

And that's where they get the authenticity factor. Like, okay, I'm validated that I'm gonna go to this place and have a good experience because random influencer says so, versus I'm not gonna necessarily trust what the restaurant's gonna tell me anymore. So there's been a lot of, a lot of consumer base shifting.

Daniel: Being a CMO sounds fucking exhausting if I'm, if I'm being totally honest, especially in this space. 

Ana: Well, 

Daniel: it does. I so 

Ana: serious out. Yeah. Dining out is work, right? You go to dine out and you can't help but like, look at how the menu's organized. You know, how long did it take for them to take my drink order, you know?

You know, you notice all these little things. 

Daniel: I just think it's interesting in this [00:09:00] space in particular, not that being a CMO or VP of Marketing isn't difficult everywhere, but there when I just think of like how I. I think about food and eating out and restaurants like it is. There are so many, there is an astronomical amount of competition and just factors.

Am I already out? Do I want to go home first? Do I want to order that you have no control over? Even if. You know, data says otherwise, but you know, even right now, like, I'm hungry, if you're like, oh, like you want melting pot? I'm like, yeah, melted cheese sounds good. If you're like, what about Chinese? I'm like, well, no, that sound like, it's just, it's wild how much competition there is and how many factors outside the control.

So, uh, yeah, no, no small feat. Uh, on, in, in that vein, I'm curious, you are out of seat right now, which I think allows you to answer more honestly to this next question. I hope. What is your best piece of advice to other marketing leaders out there about how to thrive in 2026 and beyond? Not just in your industry, but any industry truthfully.

Ana: Yeah, and you know, I mean, again, this industry [00:10:00] evolved so much. You know, the marketing that I started doing outta business school versus the marketing I'm doing now, it's, it's very different. But I think, um, there is an obsession. I understand why, right? But there's an obsession with content, content, content, content, right?

And you're just chasing content creation versus. The business outcome. Right? And now I think marketing has become much more tied. You have to tie to the business outcome. You can't just be chasing, you know, the content piece of it. So I think, um, people get absorbed with just, you know, creating all this, but you know, how, what are you gonna use it for, right?

And so you need to be more mindful of segmentation and how, who you're talking to, how are you gonna talk to them and then create the right content around that versus just. You know, creating content, because what happens with content, like for example on social media, you know, you created, it's a post. No one's ever gonna look at it again.

Right? Nobody cares. Right. So it, it goes back to protecting the brand will drive your numbers and then you've got [00:11:00] to then, you know, kind of build the machine around it to make it repeatable, um, and consistent. 

Daniel: Do you think in general, um, there's a trend for like. Over measurement. I find with a lot of brands, again, I'm all all for data, but I feel like often, like I, I take the opinion often that like the best CMOs I think, or the, the brightest or smartest are like willing to, to buck the data and say, yeah, I see that, but like my gut tells me otherwise.

I think people just sometimes data stifles the creativity. Do you see that at all? 

Ana: I think you need to have a balance. I think you need to have a balance. I mean, it can't be just data driven. You have to, but use, use it as an insight just like everything else. I think now with, um, you know, mining data, it can be incredibly time consuming.

And so, um, I think now with AI it can. Getting those insights, not just like looking at the data, but getting the [00:12:00] insights outta the data that much better. So I think, yeah, data, it can cause too much data can obviously cause paralysis, but when you can get true insights outta that data, which is always the goal.

Then, um, then it actually probably opens up your creativity, right in, in terms of like, for example, you know, using segmentation, if you can better understand, you know, who are the people that are coming in for a celebration or once a year for an anniversary versus people that are coming in more frequently, you can talk to them differently because now you understand them, right?

So if you can use it to create those types of insights, um, and op open up your mind to that, then I think then I think you'll be successful. 

Daniel: I love it. Uh, I'm always curious to ask since, as you know, which you can make fun of me if you'd like. I'm such a power LinkedIn user over, oh, I was gonna say, uh, I would make fun of me for my activity on LinkedIn as well, but a savage wild animal over there.

I'm curious with your title, CMO, you know, you've been VP and stuff in the past, are you getting hit up every 14 seconds via every medium [00:13:00] by agencies and vendors looking to work with you? 

Ana: Yeah, I mean, I, well, I mean, I, I always see, you know, the posts and the content of course. But yes, I do get all those little, um, messages, um, about, you know, talking about, you know, whatever it is.

And I don't really necessarily pay attention to them unless they're coming from, you know, a. A source that I, that I trust. Yeah. 

Daniel: That, that was gonna be the question. So you, you, you, you beat me to it. You already, you answered how I was hoping you would answer, but I'm curious, is there anything when you're not in market, like we're about to talk about how you worked with me, but if you're not in market, is there anything a vendor or agency can cold say that you're like, sure, let's do it.

You know, let's have a, a general conversation or No, just because of the amount of time constraint you have generally for meetings. 

Ana: No, I typ. I typically don't, I don't, uh, for the ones that reach out directly to me, but you know, to be honest, when it came to you, so to the trusted source, right? I had seen enough, 

Daniel: yeah.

Lay it, lay it on me. Give me, 

Ana: gimme [00:14:00] some praise over here. All your favorite part of the podcast. I was gonna say, it's about you. This is the best. No, but I mean, I had, I had seen people I trust and that I've worked with in the industry that, um, have used you right. That they, and, and, and. And are very happy, um, with, with everything that you delivered, right?

Really good brands, right? So in knowing them and having worked directly with them and knowing their, not just their work, but their personalities, the who they are as people, I know their kids, right? I, you know, these types of things. I, I know them and I trust 'em. And so, um, when I was gonna go through the process, I reached out to them like, Hey, tell me more about working with Daniel.

And they, they were like, 

Daniel: he's a, they were like, he's a wild animal, but effective 

Ana: basically. But I was like, I loved it. I was like, that sounds like a lot of fun, because it should be a fun process, right? I mean, it's like, it's like the dream project, especially when you're working on hiring a creative agency.

It's always fun, [00:15:00] right? And, uh, it's like, it's like the fun part of marketing. And so, um, but yes, it was always with, you know, going through a trusted source and networking that way, not just like some random person. 

Daniel: I love it. Yeah, and to your point, like I do firmly believe that it's not always the case, but yeah, RFPs, uh, often the life is sucked out of them because of how like formalized the process is.

Um, so I'm glad to hear that it was fun, but let's, uh, let's talk about it. Actually, you know, you, we won't, we won't, uh, we won't talk about any of the participating agencies or the winners since this just, uh, last week, uh, got penned, which is exciting, but. Yeah. If I, if I remember correctly, you came to me, we wrote an RFP together and talked a little about the process.

I'm curious, before, you know, you asked around about me, I guess, but at the beginning, what, what was going through your head, I guess, of like, oh, this guy's gonna introduce me to like. A bunch of agencies and stuff. I'd love to hear in particular, like the chemistry round, uh, just taking general calls with agencies, trying to, I don't know, suss out the vibe.[00:16:00] 

Ana: Well, even before that, you know, um, we had done, um, an RFP for, um, a different agency, I think a couple years previously, and we didn't use you because I, I didn't know about you. Right. And so, um, I didn't know that I was missing this part of my life. 

Daniel: Biggest mistake of your career. 

Ana: Exactly. An idiot. So, um, so yeah.

So how did we go about even finding agencies to RFP? Well, we asked, again, we did ask people, right? I asked friends, who do you use? Who have you used, who have you used? Um, and we, but it, it felt, it, it kind of limits, you know? 'cause I can talk to one person and they use this and I talked to another person.

How many people am I gonna reach out to? And um, you know, so it kind of was limiting right. Going through you. And especially, I don't have to pay you. Right. The agencies paid you. Right. So I, it was great because you have hundreds of relationships and it, so it opens up, you know, it's like remote work. Like it opens you up to a whole, like, [00:17:00] slew of candidates.

The otherwise, you know, wouldn't be like right in your geography or like right in your immediate, you know, purview. And so, um, just knowing that you had access to all these different agencies made me feel that I could maybe find a better agency by going through you. Um. And then I gave you, you know, the criteria and some of it is geographic, some of it's physical and some of it is, you know, obviously the business constraints and can they handle it?

'cause it's, it's not a huge account, for example. I mean, certainly bigger accounts are, um, out there. Um, but you know, when in the, in the, in the melting pot example, when it's an experiential brand, one of the things I said was like, they have to have a melting pot in their town, like driving distance, like right there because they have to go experience it.

A lot. Don't just go on the website, don't just look at, you know, our, our social media. You have to go experience it. Also, just the convenience. I don't want anybody in la, right? I need somebody in my time zone or one time zone away. Just because this, [00:18:00] this agency is gonna be an extension of the marketing team, and as such, I need to like, have access to them on my, on my time.

Right? I can't have you three hours behind. I used to work with an agency. I was. Um, working, um, in Maryland or in DC and the agency was in London. And you know, it's hard and inherited it, right? It was a bigger, it was through Proctor and Gamble. It was, it was Leo Burnett and they were in London. And, um, that was massively inconvenient, um, because the window that we could actually do the work together was, you know, very, very tight.

Um, yeah. And so, yeah, so I love the fact that you had all this access to agencies. Heard me, heard my criteria. You, you got to start knowing me and how I was, you met my team. And, um, at the end of the day, the, to your point about the, the chemistry sessions you, um, gave us, I forget how many we started with, but five, five, um, five or six.

Yeah. So some agencies that we had these chemistry sessions with, um, and it was great because [00:19:00] I think they asked me more questions than I was able to ask them. Um, because they were curious, they were eager to understand and get to the next round. Um, and in some cases where I'm like, Hey, man, I was really tired.

That was like, at the end of the day, I think I might need to talk to them again because I, I didn't, I didn't ask a single question. Right. I, I need to go back in there and talk to them. But I thought the chemistry sessions were really great introduction because it allowed us to just to your point, kind of get the, get the vibe and understand like, do we actually even like each other?

You know, is it easy or is like, is the conversation kinda like, you know, stunted? 

Daniel: Yeah. No, I agree. We did that. We moved on to some tissue sessions and working sessions, which in my opinion are the, for something like creative, the most integral and agencies have differing opinions of tissue sessions. I know some agencies I, I work with love them and some of them think they're a little bit of a waste.

Some think they ruin the, the big reveal and the magic in the room once it gets to pitches, but I'm curious your opinion [00:20:00] about that, especially since this was. Um, without giving away too much, uh, you know, transforming and trying to kind of, uh, reimagine a, a legacy brand that, you know, mm-hmm. Since we're, since we're so honest on this podcast, last time I ate a melting pot before this was homecoming, you know, uh, I wanna say 10th grade.

10th. 10th grade, yeah. Um, so yeah, talk me through that. With the tissue sessions leading into the pitches, I thought helpful for you or. 

felt 

Ana: it was my favorite part. Okay. It was my favorite part. Um, look, I threw you for a loop too because I had a lot of people participating.

I was the only one really. I mean, some people, that was 

Daniel: the only battle I lost during our RFP when I was like, you're gonna bring in what you're gonna do, who 

Ana: I'm gonna bring in a lot of people and audience, um, to the, 

Daniel: I'm gonna have to bleep, I'm gonna have to bleep this part out so other brands don't get ideas, you know?

Ana: Yeah. But, um. Yeah, I threw you for a loop on that one, but it was my favorite part of the experience because, um, you're right, some agencies did it different. I didn't [00:21:00] care how, as long as we did the tissue session, I didn't care if they just came to the table with like, we're thinking, you know, no deck. And we're thinking like these directions and some, you know, came to the table with like, it was, it was almost like basically a pitch.

But what I really liked was you started to understand their thinking. Uh, at, at the strategic level, right? And did they understand the business? Did they understand my constraints? Did they understand the pressures? Did they understand the brand? Did they understand the guests? Like, did they start really thinking through, um, not just the creative, ultimately the creative output, but were they think, were they understanding my business?

Were they understanding the team? What we're, what we're trying to accomplish, like the goals, and were they articulating? What that space was. You know, so, so lots the agencies that did that work, I was already understanding them. Um, because to me, like if you're not, if you're not thinking at that level at the beginning, I, I think we're gonna be like very, very narrow in terms of where we end up.

But if you're [00:22:00] thinking bigger like that, um, that's gonna set us up for more success. So, um, understanding that and then starting to see how they were. Weaving it through to these directions that they were going and some agencies that through line was beautiful, you know, through that, um, through that tissue session.

And in some, I was nodding my head and agreeing with the strategic part, but then when you got to the, where they were going with the execution, you're like, hmm, you're not going in the right direction there. Something's off. And so being able to help them correct that, you know, like, let's realign here. And then helping them Correct.

That, I think was helpful to, to them obviously, because if they showed up with that, that would've just, you know, it, it gave them a, it continued giving them a chance, um, to, to do the work because again, they were Right. Um, where they were going, they just didn't, you know, maybe, maybe finish it. Um, where I was thinking the [00:23:00] other thing, and, and, and to the point about being a legacy brand.

Look when, when a brand's been around for 50 years, like Melting pot has. You've seen a lot, uh, the people on the phone, right? The people that were also on the call, they have maybe been there for decades and that brand has had to figure out ways of saying things differently or the same for decades. And so, uh, there's a lot of cheese punts, right?

Um, there's a lot of things like that. And so what might feel fresh and new to the agency? For a 50-year-old brand, like we've been there, done that, saw it, you know, we, we, we created this, right? And so telling them that. Which isn't to say it's wrong, just because we did that. We, you know, there's always somebody in the room says, oh, we did that in 1992.

And it's like, well, you 

Daniel: also, you also fondue ends with dew. Like you've just got every pun opportunity. Yeah. In the land. I miss my calling as a copywriter, it's so difficult to not, to not interject in the group. [00:24:00] Really? Yeah. Oh, I love, I love writing copy for stuff like that. Yeah. 

Ana: No, but I mean, so you know, when you've seen it all and some people on the phone can, you know, tell you, no, we did that in 1982.

We always, that was like the 2013, you know, LTO or something. Like, you're like, what? Um, so, you know, letting them know, like you gotta kind of break out of this like. Closer in place that we've already been, that might have been more breakthrough back then, but now it's just not because we've seen it. And honestly, the process has to be not just motivating and relevant for the guests, but also for the internal stakeholders, right?

It needs to, in this case, it needed to feel fresh and new and exciting for the franchisees. It needs to be able feel fresh and new and exciting. For the, the people on the ground, who are the people in the restaurant, in the four walls, the servers, the bartenders, you know, the managers. Like, they need to feel like, Hey, this is, this is, this feels really great to work here because this is how we're representing ourselves.

Um, so those tissue sessions I thought kind of worked out some of those kinks and some of that [00:25:00] in misalignment. It was great. 

Daniel: Yeah, I like it for a couple reasons, and you brought up a bunch of stuff I wanted to ask about, but I think it gives the CMO, uh, just a, i, I hate to say like bigger, but like a more differentiated body of work to evaluate when it gets the end.

'cause a pitch to me is like one moment in time, right? Mm-hmm. And if an agency misses in a pitch, I'm not saying like you should immediately give them another chance, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're not the right agency for you, right? Every agency misses at some point in their lives, whether they would admit that or not, but.

You know, the tissue session, to your point, lets you see a little more behind the curtain of the thinking, which to me is important. Um, something else that I think is interesting in particular with this, which doesn't happen often. You actually invited, uh, against my, um, my direction some. And none of this is meant to sound negative If any of this does towards like franchisees 'cause they are like a huge piece of the business.

You invited. Members of the, uh, franchise marketing committee. Mm-hmm. Uh, who from my understanding don't have typically like the [00:26:00] marketing background that you would or a CMO and seat. So it's interesting for an agency as well as you, 'cause agency is trying to like, win you over, but also win over franchisees, but also tie everything back to the customer, which has nothing to do with you or the franchisees.

Right. You're navigating, picking agency, making franchisees happy. So it's like this weird triangle Venn diagram of like, holy shit, if we're an agency, like we got a lot of stuff going on. I think it went relatively smoothly. But to your point, like I do remember at some point somebody made a comment like, we did this 27 years ago, or something like that, and the agency was like, okay, like that's okay.

Like that's why, again, I think in these things it's an opportunity too to see how people deal with. Pushback as and, and negativity and stuff like that. Again, I would kill 'em first, but if any of the agencies I work with ever like, you know, got like, uh, super aggressive about like, defending their stuff rather than talking like, you shouldn't hire them either.

I just think it, it invites healthy conflict, um, before you're actually in [00:27:00] it together as well. 

Ana: Yeah, and I mean in that, in those situations, I thought, um, you and I worked really well together in terms of like, Daniel, I have to have these people on the call. But what's a way to make this productive, right?

So that, so what you just said doesn't happen. And so, um, I thought we did a good job in terms of like prepping. You did the tissue session, bring your questions, you, you know, contribute, ask the questions, ask everything you want. Um, and, and I had to tell them, you know, very clearly, this is what a tissue session is.

This is what a tissue session is and is not right. This is what we're gonna talk about. These are the things that we're not gonna talk about. And bring your questions here. And then for the pitch, since they were there too, um, what we did, what we did was, um, ask them, really don't ask questions. If they had one, it was fine, but really not necessarily ask questions.

But we gave them basically a scorecard. Right. And so, so that each [00:28:00] agency, they could, here's the criteria we're looking at. So they're not necessarily comparing agency to agency, but it's comparing agency versus the criteria. And then give me your scorecard, you know, after the meeting so that, um, we can take your, you know, your thoughts into consideration too.

So I thought that worked really well. 

Daniel: Awesome. The final question on the RFP stuff, you know, you got to the end, you saw three pitches. I wouldn't say it was like. The easiest decision, but you know, one agency who ended up getting selected rose to the top. I'm just curious, like as you evaluated, if you can just talk a little about like what ultimately led to that decision.

You know, was it the body of work in general? 'cause if I remember correctly, they were not the have to look back at my, my ill prepared notes, but they were not the front runner at the very beginning. I always ask along the way, like, you know, if you had to pick right now, like who's. Ahead in your mind, but yeah, just as it got to the end, like how did you think outside of the scorecards, just, you know, from like a gut feeling standpoint, 

Ana: they were not the, the front runner at [00:29:00] the, let's say, the chemistry session, I guess.

Um, because I felt that they were asking, um, potentially a lot of questions, um, or not even necessarily questions. 

Daniel: Gross, 

Ana: Anna. No, no. Listen to me. They weren't, it wasn't that they were asking a lot of questions. It was almost like they were. They were kind of asking you a question, but kind of like, because they, they, they were gonna tell me the answer and, um, I was like, I don't know.

Because in that chemistry center I felt like, are they just gonna like, talk too much strategy and not get the work done? Right. That was my concern at the chemistry session fair, at the tissue session. Um, and I, I, I wonder, I, I forget if they're the ones that asked, um, or maybe emailed some questions before the tissue session.

I forget. But the tissue session was phenomenal because the strategic part, the way that they were able [00:30:00] to quickly understand the guest and the, and the business and the brand, and find that white space and articulate the white space. And then, uh, oh my gosh, if I could look at their, at the, at that tissue session right now, they had a very clear.

Framework that they walked you through, why, you know, almost like what's the, what's the insight that they're going with and um, what's that human moment that they're going to be delivering against? And then here's, you know, here's the idea. And they had like five of 'em. And so the strategy and this beautiful framework that was so well articulated, and then the ideas, I mean.

There were one idea in my mind. I was just like, I, I was, I felt like I was looking for a unicorn and I almost fell outta my chair when I, when I felt it and they delivered it. I, like, I did not, honestly, people are 

Daniel: gonna [00:31:00] think I'm paying you to say this stuff. 

Ana: Honestly. That's great. That's, that's the best feedback you can 

Daniel: get.

Ana: Well, I just didn't, I honestly didn't think it was possible. And then there was another idea. That was also really good. Right? And so, but when I first saw that, I was just like, oh my God. Like, I'm, I'm done, we're done. And I cannot even believe that we achieved this. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, and then, and then they took it to the pitch, right?

We gave them some feedback, um, but then they took it to the pitch. And again, it was just, they went above and beyond. They used ai. In some instances, they, uh, created these, these. Um, these little videos about it, and I mean, one of 'em, I'm not even kidding. I mean, like, I started getting emotional about it and that was exactly what we were trying to get at.

So honestly, you know, it was, it was a very easy, um, decision for me. Um, I wasn't alone. The team felt, you know, very similarly. So, yeah, so it was a very easy decision for me to award that to them. I 

Daniel: love it. Well, a JA [00:32:00] job well done. Uh, a very smooth, relatively stress free, you know, scheduling was a little goofy at times, but, uh, we, it was a lot.

Ana: I mean, it was a lot. 

Well, 

Daniel: you're, it's your fault. Your schedule's obscene. So you were, when I had to have questions for you, you were like, you talk at like 7 45 in the morning. I'm like, yeah, would love nothing more than to chat fondue. 

Ana: I was always available to you. 

Daniel: It's a 24 7 operation over here at you should talk to, um, we're almost at the end here, but I am a couple.

Uh, just about marketing in general. What are you most excited about in this space? I know you just mentioned ai, that feels like the, the easy answer unless that's your true answer, but what are you most excited about in, um, you know, the marketing space in general at the moment? 

Ana: You know, I, I, I would, you know, as I think about that, I was just like, you know, if I say ai, you're gonna be so mad at me because you're gonna think it's length.

But I'm 

Daniel: not gonna be mad. I always just ask a follow up. Now, when people say ai, I am like, w what for what? 

Ana: Why 

Daniel: for, for like, well, where I'm like, in what regard? So if that's your answer, totally fairs not my, I just wanna know more. 

Ana: Let me talk. You [00:33:00] said you should talk to, let me talk to, I know I, I'm a terrible, you 

Daniel: should host this thing.

You can take over. 

Ana: I'm talking. Yeah. Well, yes, of course everyone's gonna say AI because that's been, you know, now for, for a couple years. But I think, um, it, it, not necessarily and how you think I'm gonna talk about it. Um, and it's not about like, oh, AI's gonna make ads, it's gonna create content. I just kind of said, you know, content's like important, but it's a little overrated.

Right. So I think what, what AI's truly doing that's exciting is freeing up the, the capacity of the marketing team. It's making marketing much more efficient. Right. It's like I was saying before, it's allowing you to mine the data. So it's mining the data, right? It can mine the data. It can provide the insights coming outta that data.

It can help you just be that much more directed to help make your marketing that much more relevant. Like I was saying before, I think it's like. If you can better understand, you know, who are the people that are coming in once a year for a celebration versus the people that are coming in more frequently.

What are they [00:34:00] ordering? Why are they ordering? What are they not ordering, right? There's just so much that you can now understand in minutes. Um, and you know, restaurants, depending on the type of restaurant. In this space, for example, you've got so much data because you've got, you've got reservation data, you've got, um, their, their email addresses.

You've got other ordering behavior, right? Um, if you can, if you have their cell phone numbers, you have their phone numbers, you can start, you know, sending dynamic messaging based on time of day when they were here. I mean, it's just, I think AI can just create so much more opportunities. Um, not to do the, the marketing for you, but just unlocking so much, um, capacity for your team that otherwise would've been, you know, very manual in nature or running these like insane reports that by the time you get the report you're like, I don't even know what I'm looking at.

I don't even remember why we're running this. Right. And now you can just ask the question and keep building and it keeps [00:35:00] learning. Right. So it's just, it's just, it's just fascinating how it can just increase the capacity of, of the team. 

Daniel: I love it. So what's your actual answer if AI's not the answer? It sounded like AI was your answer.

Ana: No, ai. No, because now, well, here's, here's the deal. What happens is the o the other side of it, right? So marketing does not own in restaurants, for example, marketing can can help it. Marketing doesn't own the experience, right? So if you let marketing do their job, which is again unlocking these insights.

Being, making the brand relevant. Then what what can happen is then, you know, people can go in and actually then have the human experience that can be delivered in the restaurant, um, in the very, in the very human way. So the data, the AI can get them in the door, um, but let the experience, you know, bring them back.

And what I am bullish about right, is, like you were saying before, the guest is all about. The [00:36:00] experiences, the um, physical experiences, the emotional connections, right? They can go have this now even because they felt that much more connected to the brand when making the decision to go in, because we did, you know, a great job with that.

And, um, 

Daniel: you'd agree then good marketing or even the best marketing can't beat bad operations, I presume. 

Ana: Yeah. Well that's. That's, that is definitely a problem. I think that's a, a misconception is that, you know, marketing is accountable for the experience and, you know, we can't, we can, we can help with the experience.

We can talk about the experience. But you can 

Daniel: get 'em, you can get 'em there. You can't, uh, 

Ana: serve 'em. Yeah. But we cannot, you know, we don't own the operations. We don't own names, store execution. We don't, uh, the, the service and the consistency. Um, you know, we don't own that. And so, yeah, part of the job is, uh.

It's difficult, you know, we can be accountable for certain things, but if we don't own the experience, you know, we can't, uh, it, it stops there. 

Daniel: What keeps you up at night from a business or marketing [00:37:00] standpoint, or stresses you out? 

Ana: Um, you know, when I was in, back when I was in business school, um, my, um, my organizational behavior professor was a very, um, dynamic guy and.

This is, you know, several years ago. And he, um, and he would talk about the world continues to want more, better, faster, more, better, faster. It's all about more, better, faster. And um, you know, that was a long time ago and that has just continued the pace is, you know, just so fast at all times. And like I said, the marketing that I was doing at p and g and L'Oreal back when I was getting started versus the marketing I'm doing now, which has become, you know, very.

You know, technical and, and, and digitally focused and analysis focused. It's all very different. So I think, um, you know, the being more, better, faster, um, there's this pressure to do be more, better, faster with, with less, while still being brilliant and still being, you know, all the, you know, measurable and measuring everything.[00:38:00] 

Um, so that keeps me up at night. The other thing is this constant tension, and we started kind of talking about this at the beginning, is the, the constant tension between. Building the brand for long term and meeting or versus meeting what is demanded by leadership or Wall Street or whatever this quarter.

Um, and there's this constant tension, um, that needs to be addressed regardless of your corporate structure. Um, that is, you know, just also, you know, very difficult to manage. Um, 24 7. 

Daniel: It is hard. Um, you survived the marketing portion of this podcast. We will finish with some, uh, some fun ones that I ask everybody.

What was your very first job? 

Ana: So, um, I had to think back for this one, but, um, my very first job in high school, um, was, um, working for my mother. So my mother's a doctor. [00:39:00] Um, and she was an obstetrician. 

Daniel: I'm scared. I'm, I'm scared a little already. You're like, my doctor, mother hired me outta high school to, uh, to, to, to aid in.

Uh, 

Ana: no. I worked, I worked after school. After school. So my mother was an obstetrician and gynecologist. Okay. And after school I would go to her ob, GYN practice and, you know, just work in her office and, you know, yes, it was my mother, but she made me work very hard. For the $3 and 32 cents an hour that I made, um, maybe, 

Daniel: maybe illegal child labor.

We will glaze over that. 

Ana: Well, you know, my mother was very professional. Um, ate professional. So she made me call her Dr. Gel. When I would go to the office, that's great because it was more professional than calling her mom if I had any questions. So I had to, you know, call her by her name, but, um, her professional name, which is actually her maiden name, right?

So I had to call her like by her maiden name, Dr. Gel. Um, but you know, it was interesting because, um. And, and both my [00:40:00] grandfathers were also doctors, but when you worked in that kind of office, you, you learn very, these are people, right? These aren't transactions, these are people that are coming in, you know, maybe for big life moments if they're pregnant or for kind of scary moments.

And so, um, you know, it certainly wasn't glamorous, but it was, it was very grounding because you saw, you know, just people like normal people, you know, all, you know, all the time. My, that was my very first job, my first job out of college. Was actually in New York City and it was working in the corporate division, um, for Tiffany's, Tiffany and Company.

And so, um, 

Daniel: oh yeah, that was one of the a, your aspirational brands from the uh, yes. From the RFP. You wanted the, uh, to elicit the emotion of when you opened the box. 

Ana: Well, exactly right. Right. So, I mean, that was my first job outta college. So imagine, you know, working for such an iconic and timeless brand. I mean, that's been around for over a hundred years, right?

So you're working for this iconic, timeless brand that yes, it's a ultimately a product in this blue box, [00:41:00] but it's so much more than that, right? Because you're selling emotion, you're selling memory, you're selling meaning, you're selling love, right? You're selling all these. Wonderful things. So, you know, really two very obviously different experiences at, you know, very different ends of, of, of my life and my continuum.

But it's all about, you know, the human emotion, the human feeling, iconic storytelling, you know, some of those things, you know, ultimately, you know, led me to, to be a marketer because I, I really love that space. 

Daniel: I was gonna say, you can tell this isn't, uh, you know, uh. You know, uh, sucking up to A-C-M-O-I, I talked to a million people and I would say the vast majority, if I'm being honest, uh, I wouldn't say everybody's dead inside, but you lose sight.

I think of like, I don't know, the cool part of marketing and you can tell like you light up when talking about like the craft and the experience of opening this stupid blue box, but the excitement it brings in the experience around it. And you were like that with fondue too, truthfully, which I'm prob I'm being serious.

I'm probably more cynical than most, but you can tell you deeply respect. And I think when you reach that [00:42:00] level, regardless of. You know, I see people saying like, oh, like the C-suite of Taco Bell isn't eating Taco Bell every meal. Probably not. But I do think they deeply, deeply respect the people in all the stores and the, the craft of, of the whole shebang that they're doing.

And I would say that about you as well, like working with you, but also you can just see it when you talk about like some of these brands. So that's rare in this industry. I think in 2026. 

Ana: Thank you, Daniel. 

Daniel: You're welcome. Uh, what would your final meal be? And don't tell me a bloom and onion or a fondue bowl.

Ana: Taco Bell. No, 

Daniel: now we're talking. Now we're talking. 

Ana: No, you know what, um, weirdly, do people think about this because 

Daniel: I do 

Ana: you know, 

Daniel: I, on a horrifyingly morbid basis Yes, I do all the 

Ana: time. I ask 

Daniel: everybody 

Ana: this question 'cause I have, I actually have thought about it. Like, whenever you see something, you know, on the news or whatever, like.

What would my last meal be? And it's like, what would, what could I possibly do to be on death row to then, you know, [00:43:00] have a last meal? It 

Daniel: doesn't have to, that's what somebody else has said on this po It doesn't have to be death row. Just say, you're, you're, you're gone tomorrow. The world's ending. We got a shot at that.

Who knows? The world could end tomorrow. 

Ana: So what's wrong with me if I took it to like the death row place? But I think that's when you think about it, right? But, um, you know, look, I'm, I'm Cuban, I was raised Cuban. And 100% my last meal would be Cuban food because it's, it's, it tastes like home, right? So Cuban food, it start out with some croquetas.

Absolutely have vieja. If it's my last meal, I'm like, okay, screw it. I'm gonna have a carb, so I'll have some rice. That's good. Maybe some, maybe some black beans. Um, but yeah, I mean that kind of food, so familiar, so warm, so tasty. Um, and it's, it's the food I grew up with. So, you know, for my last meal, I'm not going fancy.

I'm gonna go nostalgic. 

Daniel: Okay. And then my final question, who is somebody who inspires you personally, professionally, or both? 

Ana: Yeah. Um, [00:44:00] well, I would, I would actually have to say, and this is probably super cliche, um, but, but it would be my mother. Dr. Gel, 

Daniel: Dr. Gel. Shout. Shout out Dr. Gel. 

Ana: I'll tell you why. Okay.

Dr. Gel. Ope. It's not, 

Daniel: it's, it's not a bad answer. It is. A lot of people have said that. That's a wonderful answer. Send this to your, send this to your mother and I'm sure she'll be through it. 

Ana: Oh, I'll make her watch it. But um, she'll be like, well, you didn't, yeah, she'll probably criticize it. That's, this 

Daniel: is about your turn therapy.

I'm like, tell me about your issues with your mother. 

Ana: Yeah. So, you know, here's the deal. My mother, you know, like I said, I'm Cuban, right, with the Cuban food, um, answer. But my mother immigrated from Cuban when she was just 13 years old. Um, you know, my, my grandfather, um, it was him, my grandmother and my mom.

Um, my grandfather, like I said, he was a doctor and they had to leave, you know, from one minute to the next, due to the Cuban Revolution. He left with $3 in the heel of his shoe. [00:45:00] Um, my grandmother, my mom, and his education. And they came here. My mom was 13 years old and in the span of 10 years, uh, being in the us she finished high school.

She finished college and she finished medical school all in her second language. Right. So, um, she did a lot. And so when she was in medical school, she was only one of two women in her class. Right. This was back when, you know, a lot of women weren't going to medical school. And so she was one of two medical, uh, two medical, two women in her medical school class.

She was also married and she had had me in her second year of medical school, which is unheard of. Right? 

Daniel: Yeah, that's a 

Ana: lot. And then, then listened to this part, right? So she had me in February, you know, right in the middle of, you know, semester. She took three days off to have me. Um, no maternity leave, no nothing.

That was just. What [00:46:00] she did. That's what she, that's the expectation she had of herself. 'cause she was like, there is no way I'm taking time off. I've gotta graduate with every single person I started with. She was that determined. And really that wasn't unusual in my family and my, my, I I grew up around women that worked and my grandmothers, they both had graduate degrees, um, from Cuba and my grandfathers were both physicians and my grandmothers.

Uh, were basically their, their office managers and manage their medical practices. So I grew up watching women who were smart, who were capable, who were resilient, and they didn't really see career and family as, as separate identities. Right. And so my definition of, of leadership and of work ethic, you know, that was shaped really early on by, by watching them.

Um, so maybe it's not just my mother. Maybe it's, you know, all of these women in my family, professional women when it really wasn't as common as it is [00:47:00] today. Um, but yes, those, those women continue to be my role model. My, my grandmother's and my great aunt, they're, they're, they're gone. Um, but my mother, you know, it's retired, but I still very much good.

Daniel: She 

Ana: deserved that. Remember that and see that. And I remember those days, you know, when I wa when I worked in Dr. Gel's office, right? And I remember those days and I saw just how committed she was. To everything she was doing. So yeah, that's, that's still, uh, who I admire. 

Daniel: Women are superior. Shout out. Dr. Gel.

Uh, thank you so much for joining and uh, for all the kind words and uh, yeah, we will, we will chat more soon. 

Ana: Can't wait. Daniel, 

I.